The end of short Mark leads to ...

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MrMacSon
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The end of short Mark leads to ...

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:22 pm

Mark 16:5-8
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5 As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.

6 “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus 'the Nazarene', who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”

8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.*

.
* Some manuscripts have the following ending after verse 8, before v. 9 (one manuscript that has it doesn't have vv. 9-20) -

'Then they quickly reported all these instructions to those around Peter. After this, Jesus himself also sent out through them from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation. Amen.'



It's almost as if this would encourage people to begin reflecting on or reading the beginning of Mark - chapter 1 - again, which is, -

.
1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God, 2 as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”—

3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him’.


4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River 6 ...

7 And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

12 And the Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. 13 He was in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts; and the angels waited on him.

14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came to Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news.”
.

Also, Could the 'young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side', in Mark 16.5, have been a reflection of or a hat-tip to John the Baptist?

Martin Klatt
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Re: The end of short Mark leads to ...

Post by Martin Klatt » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:04 am

Last edited by Martin Klatt on Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
What I have written, I have written........., but it ain't necessarily so.

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MrMacSon
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Re: The end of short Mark leads to ...

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:36 pm

Martin Klatt wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:04 am

.. the text version that Codex Bezae has preserved for us in the second part of line 16:7: ϊδου προαγω ϋμας εις την Γαλιλαιαν εκει με οψεσθαι καθως ειρηκα ϋμειν

Note that the first person singular is employed: Behold I go before you to Galilaia where you will see me like I told you.

Now the ironic thing is that Codex Bezae has the longer ending beyond 16:8, though that makes no sense and a large part is clear to see added in a different hand.
.
Cheers Martin. That is interesting.

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Re: The end of short Mark leads to ...

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:10 am

Martin Klatt wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:04 am
If that is also part of the parallel it would follow that the women were seeing Jesus himself sitting there. In the same light could be seen the remark in 16:6 of the young man/Jesus that the crucified Jesus the Nazarene is not here, because he is no longer that person, the spirit having been expelled. He is a new person now, a νεανίσκος so to say.
While I completely agree with you, that Mark 16:5 and Mark 5:15 are carefully connected, imho it remains to be considered that the Neaniskos could be (and is most likely) the same Neaniskos as in Mark 14:51. My pet theory is, that John is the predecessor and the neaniskos the successor (when John is handed over, Jesus starts his mission [Mark 1:14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, …] and when Jesus is handed over, the Neaniskos starts his mission [Mark 16:6 … He has risen])

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Let's Do The Time Warp Again

Post by JoeWallack » Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:50 am

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:10 am
Martin Klatt wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:04 am
If that is also part of the parallel it would follow that the women were seeing Jesus himself sitting there. In the same light could be seen the remark in 16:6 of the young man/Jesus that the crucified Jesus the Nazarene is not here, because he is no longer that person, the spirit having been expelled. He is a new person now, a νεανίσκος so to say.
While I completely agree with you, that Mark 16:5 and Mark 5:15 are carefully connected, imho it remains to be considered that the Neaniskos could be (and is most likely) the same Neaniskos as in Mark 14:51. My pet theory is, that John is the predecessor and the neaniskos the successor (when John is handed over, Jesus starts his mission [Mark 1:14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, …] and when Jesus is handed over, the Neaniskos starts his mission [Mark 16:6 … He has risen])
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/52e651cb-2 ... 8676e21a96

JW:
The point of GMark is that what is important is believing that Jesus is risen (faith). It's not based on historical witness (which would be the opposite of faith). Christians (and some Skeptics) mistakenly believe that GMark is likely a reaction to the predecessor Christian belief that there was claimed historical witness to a risen Jesus but there is no quality evidence for that. That belief is likely anachronistic. GMark, as the likely first Gospel narrative represents the logical (un)natural progression of Christian belief:
  • 1) Since resurrections are impossible we can be certain that Jesus was not resurrected.

    2) Since Jesus was not resurrected we can be certain there was no historical witness to a resurrected Jesus.

    3) Since we can be certain there was no historical witness to a resurrected Jesus, it's unlikely there was any claim of a resurrected Jesus by historical witness.

    4) It's more likely that claims of a resurrected Jesus were made by non witnesses to Jesus. Enter GMark. And now 4) is a reaction to 3).
I also have faith that you have correctly deduced that embracing the little ones of GMark refers to Paul. (Just as the first to proclaim the risen Jesus refers to Paul). [Go north to see him. Paul talking to Paul. Like one born out of time. It would seem like Spielberg was not the first].


Joseph

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MrMacSon
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Re: The end of short Mark leads to ...

Post by MrMacSon » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:47 pm

Some scholars have noted correspondence between the tomb of Jesus and Elisha (Mk 16:8; cf. 2 Kgs 13:20-21).

Thomas L Brodie has asked, “Is it coincidence that Mark’s picture of the women fleeing frightened from the tomb is partly matched by the apparent fright of the pall-bearers [at the resurrection in 2 Kgs 13:21] and by their implied flight from the tomb of Elisha?”

2 Kgs 13:20-21
20 So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. 21 As a man was being buried, a marauding band was seen and the man was thrown into the grave of Elisha; as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he came to life and stood on his feet.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The end of short Mark leads to ...

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:53 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:47 pm
Some scholars have noted correspondence between the tomb of Jesus and Elisha (Mk 16:8; cf. 2 Kgs 13:20-21).

Thomas L Brodie has asked, “Is it coincidence that Mark’s picture of the women fleeing frightened from the tomb is partly matched by the apparent fright of the pall-bearers [at the resurrection in 2 Kgs 13:21] and by their implied flight from the tomb of Elisha?”

2 Kgs 13:20-21
20 So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. 21 As a man was being buried, a marauding band was seen and the man was thrown into the grave of Elisha; as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he came to life and stood on his feet.
So this partial match consists of fright and a flight, neither of which is even narrated in the allegedly copied account? I would suggest, then, that the answer to the question of whether or not this partial match is a coincidence is no, since not enough coincides to qualify as a coincidence. The only real overlap is that there is a resurrection, and we already know that Mark did not derive the resurrection from Elisha; what even remains?

(And I say this as one who is very interested in finding Elijah/Elisha parallels in the gospel John/Jesus material. They exist in sufficient numbers already that there is no need to invent new ones out of gossamer.)
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MrMacSon
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Re: The end of short Mark leads to ...

Post by MrMacSon » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:04 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:53 pm
So this partial match consists of fright and a flight, neither of which is even narrated in the allegedly copied account? I would suggest, then, that the answer to the question of whether or not this partial match is a coincidence is no, since not enough coincides to qualify as a coincidence. The only real overlap is that there is a resurrection, and we already know that Mark did not derive the resurrection from Elisha; what even remains?
I agree it's not a great match, and hesitated to post it, but then I thought "the man was thrown into the grave of Elisha" in response to the appearance of "a marauding band" was an account of fright in what would seem to going to be an otherwise more orderly burial. I haven't checked whether Brodie clarified which version of 2 Kgs 13:20-21 he was using (I did check the NRSV - the one above- and YLT and they seemed similar, iirc).

I was also intrigued it came from a scholar from a conservative background ...

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:53 pm
(And I say this as one who is very interested in finding Elijah/Elisha parallels in the gospel John/Jesus material. They exist in sufficient numbers already that there is no need to invent new ones out of gossamer.)
fwiw, it's from a 2015 thesis titled 'Who is Elijah in the Gospel of Mark?', downloadable from here http://minerva.mq.edu.au:8080/vital/acc ... y/mq:46025
  • I was intrigued the author cited Brodie's 2012 Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus: Memoir of a Discovery yet did not include in his biography Brodie's 2000/1 The Crucial Bridge: The Elijah-Elisha Narrative. He did included Winn's 2010 Mark and the Elijah-Elisha Narrative which I think was based on study that Brodie supervised (and if Brodie didn't supervise it, he was a close advisor)

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