The Gospel of Marcion Cannot Have Been Derived from the Gospel of Mark

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John2
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Re: The Gospel of Marcion Cannot Have Been Derived from the Gospel of Mark

Post by John2 »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:57 pm Could be. But Irenaeus misrepresented what Papias says about the oracles of the Lord put down by Matthew. That's the problem with Irenaeus

How so? In AH 3.1.1, Irenaeus says that "Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect," and Edwards shows that "gospel" is a fair representation of Papias' "logia."
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John2
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Re: The Gospel of Marcion Cannot Have Been Derived from the Gospel of Mark

Post by John2 »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:58 pm Edwards knowledge (ignorance) of Hebrew compromises the value of his thesis

Edwards notes in his preface that, "For the most part, these sources [for the Hebrew Matthew] were written in Greek or Latin ... I have therefore sought to give each text a clear and faithful rendering in modern English; hence, unless otherwise noted, all translations are my own. For readers interested in consulting the originals and/or checking my English translation, the original Greek or Latin texts are cited in full in the footnotes. For the sake of convenience, all known references to the Hebrew Gospel are gathered in Appendix I, complete with original citations, English translation, and page references in parentheses where each citation is discussed in the text of this book."
Last edited by John2 on Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: The Gospel of Marcion Cannot Have Been Derived from the Gospel of Mark

Post by John2 »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:01 pm Another example of Irenaeus misrepresenting Papias https://books.google.com/books?id=zj02A ... as&f=false

So what if Irenaeus sometimes misunderstood his sources. Edwards shows that the understanding of Papias' logia as a gospel (Irenaeus or no Irenaeus) is quite reasonable.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Gospel of Marcion Cannot Have Been Derived from the Gospel of Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

It cant be innocent ignorance. It was deliberate.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Gospel of Marcion Cannot Have Been Derived from the Gospel of Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

Edwards shouldn't have been able to publish that thesis with obvious errors and misunderstandings of Hebrew.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Gospel of Marcion Cannot Have Been Derived from the Gospel of Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

Let's make a list of 'mistakes' or misrepresentations of Papias found in Irenaeus.

1. https://books.google.com/books?id=zj02A ... as&f=false
2. Watson notes that the statement in Irenaeus - "then John the disciple of the Lord who reclined upon his breast likewise produced a gospel while living in Ephesus" is derived from a misrepresentation of Papias. Watson writes "Irenaeus is here dependent on Papias. Papias speaks of the Elder John along with Aristion as “disciples of the Lord,” and Irenaeus identifies this “disciple of the Lord” with the “disciple whom Jesus loved,” the putative author of the fourth gospel (cf. Jn. 13.23; 21.24). Papias, however, shows no knowledge of this text.
3. Watson also notes that Irenaeus also changes what Papias reports about the oracles of the Lord. "Irenaeus's claim that Matthew was written “among the Hebrews in their own language” echoes Papias's claim that Matthew “set the sayings in order in the Hebrew language.” The only difference is that Irenaeus uses the term “gospel” to refer to a written text whereas Papias does not.
4. With regards to Mark, Watson notes that Irenaeus mirrors some of what Papias says about Mark but reshapes it for his own purposes.
Watson writes "For Irenaeus, Mark is “the disciple and translator of Peter.” The second term derives directly from Papias; the first echoes his reference to Mark as “following” Peter. Irenaeus not only takes over Papias's view of Mark as based on Peter's preaching, he also asserts a similar relationship between Luke and Paul." Irenaeus introduces the gospel of Luke as a mirror of Mark's relationship with Peter. But this is yet another example of Irenaeus taking Papias and remolding it for his own purposes. There likely was no Luke before Irenaeus. So he gets the idea for Luke from Papias. I strongly suspect he invents Luke. But it has a strong resemblance to the sudden appearance of the gospel of John. Both texts likely were fabricated in some form by Irenaeus but created from the fabric of the worldview presented by Papias. https://books.google.com/books?id=hCh9k ... as&f=false

It might be worth citing Watson's observations in what follows:
In view of Irenaeus's dependence on Papias, the differences between them are striking. According to Papias, Mark wrote first and Matthew wrote to remedy his defects. According to Irenaeus, Matthew wrote first. His gospel may be dated during the ministry of Peter and Paul in Rome, about which Papias has nothing to say, and it was only “after their departure” that gospels were written by followers of Peter and Paul who recollected their preaching. Papias's defence of Mark against his critics has disappeared. Luke and John have been added to Matthew and Mark — or, on Papias's order, to Mark and Matthew. The choice of this order may acknowledge that the two gospels known to Papias are likely to have been the earliest ... Papias associates the inadequacy specifically with Mark, and considers that it was rectified by Matthew. In both cases, the perceived problem of order seems to derive from the existence of more than one gospel. Luke speaks of “many,” Papias of Mark and Matthew. If, as Papias believes, the Markan disorder is rectified by Matthew, it is presumably the Matthean order that creates the impression of Markan disorder.32 This impression, together with the elaborate defence it occasions, stems not from the Markan narrative as such but from its juxtaposition with Matthew. It seems that early readers of the two gospels were puzzled especially by differences of sequence. Mark was written first, and Matthew has reproduced much of the same material but in a significantly different order. A possible conclusion is that is reliable in this respect while the other is not. That is actually the consensus position presupposed in Papias's qualified defence of Mark. Indeed, Papias's claim that Markan order is unreliable, but that this defect was corrected by Matthew, assumes that it was Matthew who exposed the unreliability of Markan order in the first place.33 This assumption reflects a period when Matthew had begun to establish a dominant position in the life of some churches.
I have been thinking about Watson's interpretation for some time. At the very least it exposes that Irenaeus's efforts to make Matthew the first gospel are a gross misinterpretation or misrepresentation of Papias.

5. Schoedel (Schoedel, The Fragments, 89–90) doubted that Irenaeus had any real contact with Polycarp. Consequently, he argued that Irenaeus's “misunderstanding” of the apostle John was based upon his misreading Papias. It is worth noting that even when Irenaeus says that he knew Polycarp it turns out to be a passing 'witness' when he was a little boy which is brought up to counter Florinus (the Roman priest)'s acknowledged closeness to Polycarp.

6. Moreover Irenaeus goes from Papias's conscious distinction between two Johns (the elder and the apostle) and makes there to be one John - another deliberate mistake. But at the same time he often 'forgets' and reports that John died at the end of the first century but still that Polycarp met John the apostle. As Badham notes:
What grounds could Irenaeus have had for identifying the Ephesian John, who survived "till the time of Trajan" (i. e., later than 98 A. D.), with the homonymous apostle ? In the first place, he had before him the works of Papias; but then we find Eusebius in exactly the same position, drawing a precisely opposite conclusion. And it is difficult to see how and why Papias, if he had, or had had, an apostle of the first rank within reach, should have bothered himself at all with second-hand reports about other apostles ; or have had any need of the care and scrupulosity in weighing evidence with which he credits himself. In the second place, Irenaeus had his own personal recollection of Polycarp's discourses. But what was this worth ? In his own words, he was iv rrj wpiorrj ij/uSv r/XiKia, en mils <5v; and though it has been pointed out that these expressions do not necessarily exclude the idea of manhood, that cannot be said of their context. Irenaeus insists on the fact, as something remarkable, that he can even remember the place where Polycarp used to sit, and what was his appearance; and though he professes to remember the gist of Polycarp's discourses, he contents himself with giving a single direct quotation. We may conclude, then, that Irenaeus was about twelve. But, even granting two or three years more, how much does a man remember of the sermons heard at such an age? A few disjointed sentences of Polycarp's, a general impression of appeals to the name of John — that is all that reason warrants our ascribing to Irenaeus.

More especially might a hearer of Polycarp's have made a mistake as to identity, if Polycarp referred to John his master as having seen Jesus. The
last man who could say "I saw Jesus" must, in the ordinary course of nature, have been one who saw him in childhood; and in such a case there
is nothing improbable in survival "till the time of Trajan." One cannot, indeed, lay very much stress on the expressions in i John i : i ; for what
the writer says that he has "seen" and "handled" is not the person of Jesus, but "concerning the Word of life," the Logos invisible and intangible. And Origen's comment suggests itself: "No one is so foolish as not to see that the word 'hands' is taken figuratively, as when John says, 'our hands have handled.' " 27 But there is really much in favor of the idea that John the elder had seen Christ in childhood. The commanding position which he attained requires some exceptional qualification; and, however little of real value his memory might retain, still, if he had seen with his eyes, and handled with his hands, that fact would ultimately set him quite apart. Moreover, to those who had seen Christ in childhood would last be applied the cherished promise, "Some standing here who shall not taste of death." One can understand how, after a century's mist, such a figure would have loomed into apostolic proportions.

To sum up, then, with regard to Irenaeus: Florinus, whom he attacked, might well have replied: ""You say that you knew Polycarp, who knew John, who knew Jesus. If for 'knew' you substitute 'saw', I may admit your statement; but the link in all three cases is vitiated by youth, or childhood. It is the rare exception if a child ever realizes those points on which in later life information appears most desirable; and however incapable you may beof conscious dishonesty, what you are doing with your pretended traditional succession puts you, for practical purposes, almost on a par with those impostors who found their systems on some Glaucias, interpreter of Peter, or Mariamne, disciple of James, or Theodates, disciple of
Paul."
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Gospel of Marcion Cannot Have Been Derived from the Gospel of Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

The point here is that Irenaeus's treatment of Papias is ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN to be grounds for dismissing ANYTHING that ANY SOURCE ever 'told' Irenaeus. Irenaeus clearly uses existing material. But in such a way that it should cause anyone to mistrust ANY conclusions or inferences he draws from this material. He is a completely unreliable witness.

At the core again, from Papias he learned about a conflict which existed between a 'good gospel' ascribed to Matthew and a 'not so good' gospel ascribed to Mark. Celsus seems to also know of this situation and speaks of Christians trying to answer pagan objections by making the gospel 'threefold, fourfold and manifold.' Celsus had access to Irenaeus's works. It is hard to prove this of course. But it stands to reason given:
1. Celsus was contemporary with Irenaeus
2. both knew of the fourfold gospel
3. both knew and used the longer ending of Mark
4. both make similar arguments against the Marcionites (6.53)
5. both make arguments against Simon and Helena (5.62, AH 1.27)
6. the close proximity between Marcellina and Carpocrates occurs in both Celsus's work and in Irenaeus (ibid)
7. both making reference to branding practices among the sects (5.65 AH 1.25.6)
8. Irenaeus makes reference to the Valentinians using Gal 6.14 which appears to be known to Celsus (5.65)
9. The entire section 5.62 - 65 in Contra Celsum seems to echo Irenaeus (i.e. adding weight to employment of Irenaeus as a source)
10. Irenaeus's reference to Prunicos (1.35) seems to have been borrowed by Celsus (6.35)
11. both were familiar with the Apocryphon of John
12. Celsus' description of the Ophite Gnostics harmonizes best with Irenaeus' account. Celsus refers to the 'accursed god' who cursed the serpent for bringing knowledge to humanity (6.27 - 28) which agrees with Irenaeus' report according to which the serpent's advice was good (Adv. haer. 1.30.7).
13. Celsus references gnostic passwords (6.33; 7.40) which Origen cites (6.31) and the names of these gatekeepers are the same as in Irenaeus' account.
14. Chadwick recognizes the similarity between Celsus's description of wandering prophets in the region to Peregrinus https://books.google.com/books?id=wsKLI ... 22&f=false which seems to line up with Celsus being Lucian's friend
It is hard to believe that there are so many esoteric points of agreement with respect to their common knowledge of early Christianity (many of these sects must have been marginally significant). One had to have read the other's work(s). To that end it is more likely that Celsus read Irenaeus. If Celsus had Irenaeus in mind then we know the methodology of Irenaeus with respect to Papias as a source. He used sources insofar as they supported his end goals. He did not use them faithfully.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
John2
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Re: The Gospel of Marcion Cannot Have Been Derived from the Gospel of Mark

Post by John2 »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:13 pm Edwards shouldn't have been able to publish that thesis with obvious errors and misunderstandings of Hebrew.

Such as?
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: The Gospel of Marcion Cannot Have Been Derived from the Gospel of Mark

Post by John2 »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:11 pm It cant be innocent ignorance. It was deliberate.

What was deliberate?
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: The Gospel of Marcion Cannot Have Been Derived from the Gospel of Mark

Post by John2 »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:34 pm Let's make a list of 'mistakes' or misrepresentations of Papias found in Irenaeus.

1. https://books.google.com/books?id=zj02A ... as&f=false
2. Watson notes that the statement in Irenaeus - "then John the disciple of the Lord who reclined upon his breast likewise produced a gospel while living in Ephesus" is derived from a misrepresentation of Papias. Watson writes "Irenaeus is here dependent on Papias. Papias speaks of the Elder John along with Aristion as “disciples of the Lord,” and Irenaeus identifies this “disciple of the Lord” with the “disciple whom Jesus loved,” the putative author of the fourth gospel (cf. Jn. 13.23; 21.24). Papias, however, shows no knowledge of this text.
3. Watson also notes that Irenaeus also changes what Papias reports about the oracles of the Lord. "Irenaeus's claim that Matthew was written “among the Hebrews in their own language” echoes Papias's claim that Matthew “set the sayings in order in the Hebrew language.” The only difference is that Irenaeus uses the term “gospel” to refer to a written text whereas Papias does not.
4. With regards to Mark, Watson notes that Irenaeus mirrors some of what Papias says about Mark but reshapes it for his own purposes.
Watson writes "For Irenaeus, Mark is “the disciple and translator of Peter.” The second term derives directly from Papias; the first echoes his reference to Mark as “following” Peter. Irenaeus not only takes over Papias's view of Mark as based on Peter's preaching, he also asserts a similar relationship between Luke and Paul." Irenaeus introduces the gospel of Luke as a mirror of Mark's relationship with Peter. But this is yet another example of Irenaeus taking Papias and remolding it for his own purposes. There likely was no Luke before Irenaeus. So he gets the idea for Luke from Papias. I strongly suspect he invents Luke. But it has a strong resemblance to the sudden appearance of the gospel of John. Both texts likely were fabricated in some form by Irenaeus but created from the fabric of the worldview presented by Papias. https://books.google.com/books?id=hCh9k ... as&f=false

It might be worth citing Watson's observations in what follows:
In view of Irenaeus's dependence on Papias, the differences between them are striking. According to Papias, Mark wrote first and Matthew wrote to remedy his defects. According to Irenaeus, Matthew wrote first. His gospel may be dated during the ministry of Peter and Paul in Rome, about which Papias has nothing to say, and it was only “after their departure” that gospels were written by followers of Peter and Paul who recollected their preaching. Papias's defence of Mark against his critics has disappeared. Luke and John have been added to Matthew and Mark — or, on Papias's order, to Mark and Matthew. The choice of this order may acknowledge that the two gospels known to Papias are likely to have been the earliest ... Papias associates the inadequacy specifically with Mark, and considers that it was rectified by Matthew. In both cases, the perceived problem of order seems to derive from the existence of more than one gospel. Luke speaks of “many,” Papias of Mark and Matthew. If, as Papias believes, the Markan disorder is rectified by Matthew, it is presumably the Matthean order that creates the impression of Markan disorder.32 This impression, together with the elaborate defence it occasions, stems not from the Markan narrative as such but from its juxtaposition with Matthew. It seems that early readers of the two gospels were puzzled especially by differences of sequence. Mark was written first, and Matthew has reproduced much of the same material but in a significantly different order. A possible conclusion is that is reliable in this respect while the other is not. That is actually the consensus position presupposed in Papias's qualified defence of Mark. Indeed, Papias's claim that Markan order is unreliable, but that this defect was corrected by Matthew, assumes that it was Matthew who exposed the unreliability of Markan order in the first place.33 This assumption reflects a period when Matthew had begun to establish a dominant position in the life of some churches.
I have been thinking about Watson's interpretation for some time. At the very least it exposes that Irenaeus's efforts to make Matthew the first gospel are a gross misinterpretation or misrepresentation of Papias.

5. Schoedel (Schoedel, The Fragments, 89–90) doubted that Irenaeus had any real contact with Polycarp. Consequently, he argued that Irenaeus's “misunderstanding” of the apostle John was based upon his misreading Papias. It is worth noting that even when Irenaeus says that he knew Polycarp it turns out to be a passing 'witness' when he was a little boy which is brought up to counter Florinus (the Roman priest)'s acknowledged closeness to Polycarp.

6. Moreover Irenaeus goes from Papias's conscious distinction between two Johns (the elder and the apostle) and makes there to be one John - another deliberate mistake. But at the same time he often 'forgets' and reports that John died at the end of the first century but still that Polycarp met John the apostle. As Badham notes:
What grounds could Irenaeus have had for identifying the Ephesian John, who survived "till the time of Trajan" (i. e., later than 98 A. D.), with the homonymous apostle ? In the first place, he had before him the works of Papias; but then we find Eusebius in exactly the same position, drawing a precisely opposite conclusion. And it is difficult to see how and why Papias, if he had, or had had, an apostle of the first rank within reach, should have bothered himself at all with second-hand reports about other apostles ; or have had any need of the care and scrupulosity in weighing evidence with which he credits himself. In the second place, Irenaeus had his own personal recollection of Polycarp's discourses. But what was this worth ? In his own words, he was iv rrj wpiorrj ij/uSv r/XiKia, en mils <5v; and though it has been pointed out that these expressions do not necessarily exclude the idea of manhood, that cannot be said of their context. Irenaeus insists on the fact, as something remarkable, that he can even remember the place where Polycarp used to sit, and what was his appearance; and though he professes to remember the gist of Polycarp's discourses, he contents himself with giving a single direct quotation. We may conclude, then, that Irenaeus was about twelve. But, even granting two or three years more, how much does a man remember of the sermons heard at such an age? A few disjointed sentences of Polycarp's, a general impression of appeals to the name of John — that is all that reason warrants our ascribing to Irenaeus.

More especially might a hearer of Polycarp's have made a mistake as to identity, if Polycarp referred to John his master as having seen Jesus. The
last man who could say "I saw Jesus" must, in the ordinary course of nature, have been one who saw him in childhood; and in such a case there
is nothing improbable in survival "till the time of Trajan." One cannot, indeed, lay very much stress on the expressions in i John i : i ; for what
the writer says that he has "seen" and "handled" is not the person of Jesus, but "concerning the Word of life," the Logos invisible and intangible. And Origen's comment suggests itself: "No one is so foolish as not to see that the word 'hands' is taken figuratively, as when John says, 'our hands have handled.' " 27 But there is really much in favor of the idea that John the elder had seen Christ in childhood. The commanding position which he attained requires some exceptional qualification; and, however little of real value his memory might retain, still, if he had seen with his eyes, and handled with his hands, that fact would ultimately set him quite apart. Moreover, to those who had seen Christ in childhood would last be applied the cherished promise, "Some standing here who shall not taste of death." One can understand how, after a century's mist, such a figure would have loomed into apostolic proportions.

To sum up, then, with regard to Irenaeus: Florinus, whom he attacked, might well have replied: ""You say that you knew Polycarp, who knew John, who knew Jesus. If for 'knew' you substitute 'saw', I may admit your statement; but the link in all three cases is vitiated by youth, or childhood. It is the rare exception if a child ever realizes those points on which in later life information appears most desirable; and however incapable you may beof conscious dishonesty, what you are doing with your pretended traditional succession puts you, for practical purposes, almost on a par with those impostors who found their systems on some Glaucias, interpreter of Peter, or Mariamne, disciple of James, or Theodates, disciple of
Paul."

Irenaeus can have whatever misunderstandings about any of his sources (and the one regarding the identity of Papias' John seems understandable), but it doesn't affect the argument that the term logia can quite reasonably mean "gospel," and as Edwards notes, Irenaeus uses it with this sense himself in his preface to AH and in AH 1.8.1.

Regarding what Watson writes above though:

In view of Irenaeus's dependence on Papias, the differences between them are striking. According to Papias, Mark wrote first and Matthew wrote to remedy his defects. According to Irenaeus, Matthew wrote first.

As Ben noted upthread, "Eusebius gives no indication [in his citations of Papias about Mark and Matthew] that the second part [about Matthew] follows immediately upon the first [about Mark] and ... the "so then" in the part about Matthew would have no logical reference back to anything in the part about Mark."

So maybe Papias said that Matthew wrote first (or didn't say who wrote first).
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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