Mark, the Jews and the destruction of the temple

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Mark, the Jews and the destruction of the temple

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Ulan wrote:
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:[It could be an interesting thread to weigh the pros and cons. I am very uncertain
Sure. Although I'm certain that we will stay uncertain even after weighing the pros and cons. If it were that easy, we wouldn't have a book about Mark come out every few years. That's what I meant when I said that I have the feeling that "Mark" was a bit too clever for himself.

Or let's put a bit more flesh to these bones:
  • I am relatively certain that the temple is the central motif of Mark's gospel and that he meant the spiritual destruction of the temple when God leaves this temple and the Jews behind to find a new home among the gentiles, which obviously withdraws his protection from Jerusalem.
  • I am less sure that the gospel really refers to what happened in 70. A single prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem doesn't make a convincing case, as often as that had already happened before. Scenes like that with the Gerasene demoniac let me think more of the mid to late 60s as likely date of writing.
From the little I know, I would say that Mark is the NT-author who has a real and deep interest in the OT. We find in him no naive instrumentalization or a NT-typical OT-argument, which is wrong (as in Matthew or Paul). He wrote his gospel with many references to the OT and has deeply rooted it in these beliefs. He may have had a special view of the OT and his understanding may have been singular. But for me there is no doubt that the Septuagint was in fact his “holy” book. I am inclined to say that for Mark a “good” Christian faith must be based on a “good” Jewish faith (A different question is what Mark meant by good.) Perhaps this “good” Jewish faith is symbolized by the good “earth” (γῆ – ge) in the parable of the sower (Mark 4:8,20), the same earth (γῆ – ge) on which the Gentiles should sit down during the feeding of the 4000 (Mark 8:6).

It seems to me that a careful reading of the story of the fig tree raises some questions about the traditional understanding. First, there are some very suspicious comments (Mark 11:14 “And his disciples heard him say it.”, Mark 11:20 “they saw the fig tree withered from the roots”, Mark 14:21 “Peter remembered”). It seems that it is not sure, that Jesus has “cursed” the fig tree. This is just a claim of Peter and the interpretation is possible, that only the disciples “saw” the tree withered. Jesus answers: “Have faith in God” and in Mark 13:28 the summer is near “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out ...” Again there is the possibility that Mark only contradicts early Christian assertions (represented in the person of Peter.)

The opponents in the parable of the tenants are only the “chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders”, so no probs for the jews.

The young man in the tomb made a very interesting claim: “He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.” The problem is that Jesus did not say this. In Mark 14:28 he only said “But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee.” It is not a statement that they will see him. I am firmly in the belief that Mark is trying to say something here. :mrgreen:
Ulan
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Re: Mark, the Jews and the destruction of the temple

Post by Ulan »

Hmm, not sure whether I can follow you with everything here. You are as cryptic as Mark :D. I could think of several possibilities, but all of those don't have much to do with the destruction of the temple.

For one, I wouldn't put too much stress on the idea of "seeing" Jesus. When Paul "sees" Jesus, he has some kind of vision or a dream. Similarly, all the resurrection appearances in Galilee have a distinctly hands-off quality to them, compared to the Jerusalem ones. Even many of those present with Jesus on the mountain or near the lake (depending on the gospel) don't believe that there is something to "see". The "seeing" seems to be meant inwardly.

The other thing that I have to think of when Galilee is mentioned that it is really the place where most Jews of the area gathered after the Romans were through with them. That's a bit too late to be of relevance here, though. Which leaves the "Galilee of the Nations". Which is not only a real place, but also a placeholder for a concept.

I have to think about your post a bit more, so this is more about me saying I read it ;).
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Mark, the Jews and the destruction of the temple

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Ulan wrote:You are as cryptic as Mark :D.
:mrgreen:

Two years ago I would never have imagined that I would read the text in this way. I hope it does not sound too crazy and you might understand a little bit, for whatever reason, I do. :)
ghost
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Re: Mark, the Jews and the destruction of the temple

Post by ghost »

How do you know that the destruction referred to was not originally the destruction of the Roman empire during the Roman civil war?
Ulan
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Re: Mark, the Jews and the destruction of the temple

Post by Ulan »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:Two years ago I would never have imagined that I would read the text in this way. I hope it does not sound too crazy and you might understand a little bit, for whatever reason, I do. :)
Actually, I need a bit of a pointer where exactly this is supposed to be going. I'm not really sure where. And I really like to hear that, because I have been thinking about that gospel quite a lot lately.
Ulan
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Re: Mark, the Jews and the destruction of the temple

Post by Ulan »

ghost wrote:How do you know that the destruction referred to was not originally the destruction of the Roman empire during the Roman civil war?
As Kunigunde put it, the main reason would be Mark's very sensible use of the OT. He makes extensive use of the OT, so much that many of the key passages are patchworks from different OT texts, but he doesn't abuse the text. If you look at Matthew's gospel, he has many quotes from the OT, where, if you actually read up on the quote, he completely distorts the meaning. I don't see this in Mark. If you look for a passage of his text in the OT, you mostly find something that corroborates his story and, often enough, even already points at his ending, and this without overtly pointing at it in his original text. That's quite a feat.

I don't really see room nor the need to invoke the destruction of the Roman empire here. Even if you can make it fit somehow, it leaves the question as to why.
ghost
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Re: Mark, the Jews and the destruction of the temple

Post by ghost »

Does it actually say that the temple is destroyed?
Ulan
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Re: Mark, the Jews and the destruction of the temple

Post by Ulan »

ghost wrote:Does it actually say that the temple is destroyed?
No. The only time it's mentioned directly, it's marked as false witness.

Edit: I guess I'm now seeing where this is getting at (I mean Kunigunde; your question helped). This is supposed to be the oldest gospel, right (rhetorical question)?
Last edited by Ulan on Thu May 22, 2014 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
ghost
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Re: Mark, the Jews and the destruction of the temple

Post by ghost »

One of the things I'm getting at is that I would not completely exclude the possibility that a temple originally being referred to is Caesar's Venus temple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Venus_Genetrix
ghost
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Re: Mark, the Jews and the destruction of the temple

Post by ghost »

The temple is also mentioned here…

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=565#p11420
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