Mark, the Jews and the destruction of the temple

[neilgodfrey]

Hanhart's thesis supports the "both" option. Mark has overlaid a story set in an earlier time with allusions to events known to his audience post 70.

Fwiw his suggestion that Joseph of Arimathea is based on Shebna is related to a first century debate over the date for Pentecost, and which day it should be counted "from", and the shift of Christians to acknowledging Sunday as the Lord's day. Mark's reference to Joseph conducting the burial at the evening is possibly a dig at him violating that day is part a possible clue to this. I find the details of his argument interesting but a bit too far out on the speculative end. It's something I would need to immerse myself in before I could really comment fairly, however.

[Charles Wilson]

Mark's reference to Joseph conducting the burial at the evening is possibly a dig at him violating that day is part a possible clue to this.

Neil-

Remember that there is a Second Passover, one month after the first, for those who find themselves Unclean by touching a dead body just before the start of the Passover.
I try to keep up with the "What ifs:" in these cases to see if Those-Who-Wrote-Later were not aware of these Special Cases.

There may be more to this idea if you consider 33 AD. I'm still workin' on that one...

Best to you,

CW

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Psalms

No Psalm in the game. A few citations but none that meets the second criteria. To stay self-critical we should note that Mark makes no allusion to Psalm 74:1-12 (LXX-Psalm 73).

little more informations online

Timothy J. Geddert, The Use of Psalms in Mark

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Is it actually always an "either... or" question, or can it be both? I have the feeling that our difficulties with coming to a clear understanding of everything in Mark are in part due to the point that he loaded his story with so many different allusions.

Hanhart's thesis supports the "both" option.

Agreed. I think that - in connection with a Simon-Peter-story - Mark´s use of Isaiah 22 is really important. Isaiah is used here more as an “internal” part of Mark´s story and not only as an echo in the backround. The allusion is not only an allusion, it enables the understanding of Mark.

It gives me hope that it makes sense what we do here.

[Ulan]

It gives me hope that it makes sense what we do here.

And I hope, you are just on some nice extended Pentecost vacation.

A short side question: Would there be any particular reason to have the grand finale play out on Passover instead of Yom Kippur, if it's some kind of atonement thing? Except for the obvious reason that there might be a historical kernel to the whole story.

[Charles Wilson]

A short side question: Would there be any particular reason to have the grand finale play out on Passover instead of Yom Kippur, if it's some kind of atonement thing? Except for the obvious reason that there might be a historical kernel to the whole story.

You mean like...mebbe there's a Mishmarot Service Group whose name reads like "Lamb" and is serving on a Passover in expectation that God will stand with them and eliminate the Romans and the Herodians to allow a reclaiming and reconsecration of the Temple and the government and a rededication of the Priesthood and Rulership of the country under the leadership of Groups chosen by King David?

That kind of thing?

CW

[steve43]

Mark's reference to Joseph conducting the burial at the evening is possibly a dig at him violating that day is part a possible clue to this.

Neil-

Remember that there is a Second Passover, one month after the first, for those who find themselves Unclean by touching a dead body just before the start of the Passover.
I try to keep up with the "What ifs:" in these cases to see if Those-Who-Wrote-Later were not aware of these Special Cases.

There may be more to this idea if you consider 33 AD. I'm still workin' on that one...

Best to you,

CW

Where the heck did you get that?

Not the Talmud, I hope.

[Charles Wilson]

Remember that there is a Second Passover, one month after the first, for those who find themselves Unclean by touching a dead body just before the start of the Passover.

Where the heck did you get that?
Not the Talmud, I hope.

A slightly higher Authority than the Talmud...

Numbers 9: 9 - 12 (RSV):

[9] The LORD said to Moses,
[10] "Say to the people of Israel, If any man of you or of your descendants is unclean through touching a dead body, or is afar off on a journey, he shall still keep the passover to the LORD.
[11] In the second month on the fourteenth day in the evening they shall keep it; they shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.
[12] They shall leave none of it until the morning, nor break a bone of it; according to all the statute for the passover they shall keep it.

There are a coupla' Posts recently that look at John 11 and John 1 - 2. "Lazarus was dead...". Now, if "Jesus" is a Sojourner between Bethany and his hideout and has Lazarus for supper (Hi Joe!), and it is within a week of Passover, then Jesus is unclean or might need to be at this Second Passover. Joseph takes down the body before night and is NECESSARILY unclean as a result. He would be able to be at the Second Passover and not be cutoff from the People. This is another unanalyzed Story that is lost after after the Symbolism of a savior/god has been Transvalued for the New Religion. *IF* all the loose ends are cleaned up, how is this mess resolved? It makes no difference to the Transvalue Crowd since the Jews and their Culture have been Done-Away-With.

It makes a difference.

CW

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

And I hope, you are just on some nice extended Pentecost vacation.

Sorry. I organized during June a children's festival and then I was a bit tired.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

A short side question: Would there be any particular reason to have the grand finale play out on Passover instead of Yom Kippur, if it's some kind of atonement thing? Except for the obvious reason that there might be a historical kernel to the whole story.

A possible literary reason would be, for example, 1. Cor 5:7 "Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover (lamb), has been sacrificed."