Antigonus crucifixion vs Caesar crucifixion

[ghost]

Which crucifixion is more similar to Jesus's? Antigonus's or Caesar's? How do you tell?

[Charles Wilson]

ghost-
I want to give an answer to you but it is an answer of the Form I have given before. The NT MAY have been a reflection of Julius Caesar but I do not believe that myself. The Tenth Legion was JCs favorite and there is certainly visions of the 10th in Acts. I certainly do see the Caesars in the NT. I just do not believe that ALL of the NT is reducible to JC. I've gone through the entirety of the Gospels and Classified every Story. Have you? This is not a criticism. Any set of Stories can be reclassified and shoe horned into von Daniken's Tales from Outer Space. Maybe the JC Classification is complete and consistent.

I think the question is incorrect. Look at:

John 19: 23 (RSV):

[23] When the soldiers had crucified Jesus they took his garments and made four parts, one for each soldier; also his tunic. But the tunic was without seam, woven from top to bottom;

[[Note: The "Four Parts" Scene is probably taken from Tacitus, Histories, Book 4, when Mucianus lines the Legions up after the Fall of Vitellius. The Germans are shrieking in Terror.]]

Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Galba":

"He put on a linen coat of mail, however, remarking at the same time, that it would avail him little against the points of so many swords."
[[Edit: "He did however put on a linen cuirass, though he openly declared that it would afford little protection against so many swords."
See note below.]]
...
He was slain near the Curtian Lake, and there left, until a common soldier returning from the receipt of his allowance of corn, throwing down the load which he carried, cut off his head.
..
A freedman of Petrobius's, who himself had belonged to Nero's family, purchased the head from them at the price of a hundred gold pieces, and threw it into the place where, by Galba's order, his patron had been put to death. At last, after some time, his steward Argius buried it, with the rest of his body, in his own gardens near the Aurelian Way.

Four points of interest: The soldiers cast lots for a garment with no seam. Another soldier cut off Galba's head (There's more to this part of the story). The head is separated from the body as the bandages are in two piles in John. Galba is buried in his gardens near the Aurelian Way.

Otho: I'll leave out the quotes or put them in tomorrow. Otho commits suicide by falling on his own sword on his side after losing a Battle near Bedraicum on a river. You can fill in the blanks here.

Vetellius: the most vicious satire in the NT is reserved for Vitellius.

"After such a commencement of his career, he conducted his affairs, during the greater part of his reign, entirely by the advice and direction of the vilest amongst the players and charioteers, and especially his freedman Asiaticus. This fellow had, when young, been engaged with him in a course of mutual and unnatural pollution, but, being at last quite tired of the occupation, ran away. His master, some time after, caught him at Puteoli, selling a liquor called Posca, and put him in chains, but soon released him, and retained him in his former capacity..."

POSCA? What is posca? It is the Drink of the Legions, a mixture of soured wine and water. As in:

[29] A bowl full of vinegar stood there; so they put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth.
[30] When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

It WAS finished.

Tacitus, Histories, Book 4:

"Among the troops from Germany the panic was particularly great; for they believed that this separation marked them out for slaughter. They embraced their fellow soldiers, clung to their necks, begged for parting kisses, and entreated that they might not be deserted, or doomed in a common cause to suffer a different lot. They invoked now Mucianus, now the absent Emperor, and, as a last resource, heaven and the Gods, till Mucianus came forward, and calling them "soldiers bound by the same oath and servants of the same Emperor," stopped the groundless panic. And indeed the victorious army seconded the tears of the vanquished with their approving shouts. This terminated the proceedings for that day. But when Domitian harangued them a few days afterwards, they received him with increased confidence..."

Tomorrow: Antigonus.

CW

[[Note: When I wrote this last night, I went to Bill Thayer's excellent site - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... alba*.html - and discovered that the site was DOWN! HORRORS!!!
Today it is back up and please note the slight difference in translation. The word "Cuirass" is used and that makes the connection to Galba a little more plain. A Cuirass is a SEAMLESS defensive garment worn to protect the body from stab wounds. It is seamless to prevent the piercing from continuing in a weak spot.

Now, the focus is on the definition of a defensive garment - a linen coat of mail which is called a cuirass - but the focus should be on the fact that the soldiers at the Crucifixion are gambling over the seamless garment of Jesus. This is the hidden part of the entire Scene. What would Jesus have to do with a seamless garment which could be viewed as a defensive article of clothing to prevent a stab wound?

Obviously - If the Crucifixion marks the end of the Riff-Raff of the Julio-Claudians, a Symbol is needed to show that everyone knows.]]

[ghost]

I've gone through the entirety of the Gospels and Classified every Story. Have you? This is not a criticism.

I haven't. I have skimmed through Carotta's comments on Mark and think he's right that Mark follows the plot of Caesar's life from 49 BC to 44 BC. I think maybe Jesus is a combination of Divus Iulius and Ishu—a sort of Divus Ishu.

[Charles Wilson]

Ghost-

1. I've added a note to the answer I gave you. The notion that the Crucifixion in John involved Galba, Otho and Vitellius is not known. The note gives a little more information about the "Seamless Garment" ("Cuirass") that the soldiers were gambling over at the Crucifixion.

2. I want to reiterate that it would be a good idea to look at every Story in the Gospels to see if Carotta's Thesis makes sense to you. If it does, if it seems Complete and internally consistent, you may have found your explanation. The material that has appeared in front of me over the last decade is certainly not Complete but it is very consistent. Most of the Holes in Story Mapping have been covered by Atwill. The Julius Caesar Motif may work but I believe the more general case is that many more Caesars availed themselves of the Tools of the Empire to promote their own Glorification. The Church that became Catholicism survived the Caesars it was created to Glorify and became the Political Control Arm of the Roman Empire. 600 years later, Flavius Constantinus Heraclius attempted the same thing. He was dead in 10 years but his consolidation of the Eastern Front still continues today, much to Humanity's Sorrow.

3. Look at this:

John 21: (RSV):

[20] Peter turned and saw following them the disciple whom Jesus loved, who had lain close to his breast at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is it that is going to betray you?"
[21] When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, "Lord, what about this man?"
[22] Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!"
[23] The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?"
[24] This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true.

This is a Set Piece. It is the last of the Book of John. First, please be aware that the character "Peter" simply does not exist at this time. This Scene is at the Burning of the Temple. Peter has been dead for probably over 50 years, so his appearance here is for a reason!

If this is a Julius Caesar moment, then what is it telling us about JC? The Tenth Legion was his favorite, even though they almost got disbanded for hassling JC for more loot. When they complained, he yelled at them, "Citizens!". They replied, "We are not your citizens, we are your soldiers!".

So, I am sympathetic to the idea that there is a vein of JC material in the Gospels. Acts is concerned with the 12 Legion and Mucianus, going back and forth between Vespasian headed to Rome and the End of the Temple in Jerusalem. The 10th Legion WAS at Jerusalem. The Scene at John 21 would make MUCH more sense if it was about the 12th Legion so, if this is JC material it's put there for a reason.

CW

[EdwardM]

Going by what I know about the history of Julius Caesar, the iconography and Passion liturgy of the Catholic Church and the fact that Francesco Carotta cites Ethelbert Stauffer (Jerusalem und Rom) that the liturgy is derived from a funeral liturgy of Julius Caesar, I'd go with the crucifixion being Caesar's.

[EdwardM]

Now the crucifixion presented in the Gospels, that could be anyone's guess.

[Charles Wilson]

John 19: 13 and 17 (Moffatt):

[13] On hearing this, Pilate brought Jesus out and seated him on the tribunal at a spot called the 'mosaic pavement' - the Hebrew name is Gabbatha...
...
[17] So they took Jesus, and he went away, carrying the cross by himself, to the spot called 'the place of the skull' - the Hebrew nane is Golgotha.

ghost-

Here's another little piece in the puzzle. "Was this Julius Caesar or other Caesars using the Powers of the Emperor?"
Within a small number of verses of each other, we find two unusual words. "Gabbatha" is found in this single instance and..."Well, everyone knows about "Golgotha"...Right?

No.

Nobody knows about Golgotha. The Catholic Encyclopedia admits that THEY don't know where "Golgotha" is. I have it on authority from someone who hates my guts - in that loving, personal Christian form of hating someone - that "Gabbatha" is a "one way transliteration" from Hebrew to Greek. It wouldn't work going from Greek to Hebrew. The word has been "massaged" for effect. So, we have Apologetix, Skollers and everyone else trying to figger out these 2 strange words.

Try this: These words are given for a Word Play. You may not find any "Mosaic Tile" or "Tesselated Tile" in Jerusalem. You certainly will find some in Caesarea and that may be a clue. "Golgotha" is - peculiar. So, if location, location, location doesn't work, what else might? What "Word Play" would be involved here?

"Gabbatha" <=> "Golgotha" <=> "GAlBA-OTHO".

Here is where PhilosopherJay's work really comes into play! He asserts that there is a relationship between Mark and John. Now, there may have been more than one Document that Mark and John were working from (Together or not...). Consider what this means. Mark takes from a Document and constructs a very structured Work, full of Chiastic Structures and other literary features. John ain't no Mark but John PUTS IN MORE than Mark in places. Maybe too much! "Gabbatha" and "Golgotha" are within 4 verses of each other and their (Supposed Hebrew) Structures are given for a purpose.

These words are too close, in a way. They are telling us that a Game is being played and it is known.

"Golgotha" <=> "Gabbatha" <=> "Galba-Otho" is suggestive only but it is certainly illuminating.

CW

[ghost]

Golgotha is the Capitolium.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitoline_Hill

[Charles Wilson]

ghost-

It reads as if you are committed to Carotta's Thesis. As such, I wish you well.
It may be Complete and Consistent in the end and if it is, then it takes its place in the Alternatives of Explanation.
As you become familiar with the Structure and Detail, fill us in on where it leads you.

CW

[ghost]

Here it is…

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... tion%3D148

The people returned to Cæsar's bier and bore it as a consecrated thing to the Capitol in order to bury it in the temple and place it among the gods.