Tertullian Says the Stupidest Things

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Stephan Huller
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Tertullian Says the Stupidest Things

Post by Stephan Huller »

Premising, therefore, and likewise subjoining the fact that Christ suffered, He foretold that His just ones should suffer equally with Him--both the apostles and all the faithful in succession; and He signed them with that very seal of which Ezekiel spake: "The Lord said unto me, Go through the gate, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set the mark Tau upon the foreheads of the men." Now the Greek letter Tau and our own letter T is the very form of the cross, which He predicted would be the sign on our foreheads in the true Catholic Jerusalem, in which, according to the twenty-first Psalm, the brethren of Christ or children of God would ascribe glory to God the Father, in the person of Christ Himself addressing His Father. [Irenaeus Adv Haer 3.22]
So let me get this straight. Ezekiel wrote his prophesy in Hebrew and said that individuals would be signed with 'X' shape but now Tertullian cites the same arguments in a Greek translation and supposes - or wants us to believe - that Ezekiel predicted that people would be signed with a 'T' shape or it the Latin letter T. Really? Is this even possible to argue this with a straight face?

I submit that no one could possibly be this stupid to actually believe this. This is beyond the normal bounds of individual dishonesty. No one could think that Ezekiel wrote in Hebrew but the prophesy was meant to be interpreted in Greek and then applied in Tertullian. Is this the hand of a later editor 'correcting' the understanding that the cross was 'X' shaped (given that Irenaeus elsewhere says that it was in fact X shaped)?
ghost
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Re: Tertullian Says the Stupidest Things

Post by ghost »

EdwardM
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Re: Tertullian Says the Stupidest Things

Post by EdwardM »

Looks like ghost is right, Stephen. That 'cross' could be seen as an 'X' or a 'T'.

BTW, you quoted Irenaeus, not Tertullian.

(Sent from cell phone.)
Stephan Huller
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Re: Tertullian Says the Stupidest Things

Post by Stephan Huller »

Ghost is an idiot trolling a moronic theory. I am certainly not quoting Irenaeus - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03123.htm

I am not interested in whether the cross could be envisioned as resembling an X or a T. That's obvious and well established. The question is what kind of an idiot (present company excluded) could think it possible that Ezekiel writing in Hebrew was confirming that the Cross would look like a Roman T? Beyond stupid.

To translate for other ignorant people. The Hebrew tav = X. The Greek tau = T. Ezekiel infers "tav (X)" that statement "tav" is explicitly rendered into Greek (not in the LXX but some other text used by the Church Fathers) as "tau" or T. But Ezekiel can't be used to argue for the cross resembling a Roman T. Impossible.

I don't think this is what Tertullian's source said. Someone is trying to change the original testimony. It's too stupid to be true.
PhilosopherJay
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Re: Tertullian Says the Stupidest Things

Post by PhilosopherJay »

Hi Stephan,

Tertullian knew Latin and Greek. He probably read all the Hebrew scriptures in Greek and did not realize that the Greek letter Tau and the Hebrew letter Tav are different.
The mystery for me comes at the end of the passage:
Now, inasmuch as all these things are also found among you, and the sign upon the forehead, and the sacraments of the church, and the offerings of the pure sacrifice, you ought now to burst forth, and declare that the Spirit of the Creator prophesied of your Christ.
Did followers of Marcion have a sign upon the forehead? Or perhaps he meant that that they had a special use for the Tau/T symbol? Do you know what he meant?

Warmly,

Jay Raskin
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DCHindley
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Re: Tertullian Says the Stupidest Things

Post by DCHindley »

Here in US, Roman Catholic and Episcopal (Anglican) churches, and probably other "mainline" Protestant churches, palm fronds handed out on Palm Sunday are burned on Ash Wednesday, and the priest dips his finger into the ashes and dabs a spot with his fingertip onto the celebrant's forehead.

Is Tertullian suggesting that these kinds of tradition rose up naturally from Jesus' sacrifice of himself, and completely independently of Jewish scripture, so he can claim that they "prefigured" them? If so, it is amazing just how far his imagination can go when rationalizing things away.

DCH
PhilosopherJay wrote:Hi Stephan,

Tertullian knew Latin and Greek. He probably read all the Hebrew scriptures in Greek and did not realize that the Greek letter Tau and the Hebrew letter Tav are different.
The mystery for me comes at the end of the passage:
Now, inasmuch as all these things are also found among you, and the sign upon the forehead, and the sacraments of the church, and the offerings of the pure sacrifice, you ought now to burst forth, and declare that the Spirit of the Creator prophesied of your Christ.
Did followers of Marcion have a sign upon the forehead? Or perhaps he meant that that they had a special use for the Tau/T symbol? Do you know what he meant?

Warmly,

Jay Raskin
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Blood
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Re: Tertullian Says the Stupidest Things

Post by Blood »

Stephan Huller wrote:
Premising, therefore, and likewise subjoining the fact that Christ suffered, He foretold that His just ones should suffer equally with Him--both the apostles and all the faithful in succession; and He signed them with that very seal of which Ezekiel spake: "The Lord said unto me, Go through the gate, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set the mark Tau upon the foreheads of the men." Now the Greek letter Tau and our own letter T is the very form of the cross, which He predicted would be the sign on our foreheads in the true Catholic Jerusalem, in which, according to the twenty-first Psalm, the brethren of Christ or children of God would ascribe glory to God the Father, in the person of Christ Himself addressing His Father. [Irenaeus Adv Haer 3.22]
So let me get this straight. Ezekiel wrote his prophesy in Hebrew and said that individuals would be signed with 'X' shape but now Tertullian cites the same arguments in a Greek translation and supposes - or wants us to believe - that Ezekiel predicted that people would be signed with a 'T' shape or it the Latin letter T. Really? Is this even possible to argue this with a straight face?

I submit that no one could possibly be this stupid to actually believe this. This is beyond the normal bounds of individual dishonesty. No one could think that Ezekiel wrote in Hebrew but the prophesy was meant to be interpreted in Greek and then applied in Tertullian. Is this the hand of a later editor 'correcting' the understanding that the cross was 'X' shaped (given that Irenaeus elsewhere says that it was in fact X shaped)?
Does Tertullian ever mention reading, or knowing, the Bible in Hebrew? I suspect he, like the other Christians of his time, only knew the LXX. He must have been aware that there was a Hebrew version but of course thought the version he could actually read was the "correct" one, much like Christians today debating the superiority of the KJV versus RSV.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
Stephan Huller
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Re: Tertullian Says the Stupidest Things

Post by Stephan Huller »

I think the important thing is to see that this confirm with 1000% percent certainty that Book 3 of Against Marcion was developed from an original treatise (written by someone else) against the Jews. For the same core argument appears in Tertullian's Against the Jews but without the idiotic 'Ezra was saying that the Cross would be T shaped' inference.

In Against Marcion 3 we read the original context has been wholly altered. Now the Ezekiel reference appears in the middle of a string of 'proofs to the Marcionites' that Old Testament prophesies were fulfilled by the gospel. So the chapter begins:

You can see also how there were prophecies of the work of the apostles: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel
of peace, that preach the gospel of good things,a not of war or of evil things. The psalm also echoes this ...

The reference to Ezekiel 9 comes as a clarification of this string of prophesies:
So by setting it down first, and repeating it in like terms afterwards, that even Christ has suffered, he prophesied that his righteous ones too would have the same sufferings, first the apostles, and afterwards all the faithful, sealed with that mark of which Ezekiel speaks: The Lord said unto me, Pass through in the midst of the gate in the midst of Jerusalem, and set the mark TAU on the foreheads of the men.i For this same letter TAU of the Greeks, which is our T, has the appearance of the cross, which he foresaw we should have on our foreheads in the true and catholic Jerusalem, in which the twenty-first psalm, in the person of Christ himself addressing the Father, prophesies that Christ's brethren, the sons of God, will give glory to God the Father: I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I sing praise to thee.j For with good reason did he assert that he himself would be the doer of that which in our day was destined to be done in his name and in his spirit. So a little later, My praise is from thee
in the great congregation:k and in the sixty-seventh psalm, Bless ye the Lord God in the congregations:l so that the prophecy of Malachi had to be in agreement, / desire it not, saith the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices: because from the rising of the sun even to its setting, my name is glorified among the gentiles, and in every place a sacrifice is offered to my name, even a pure sacrificem—the rendering of glory, and benediction and praise and hymns. And since all these are found in use with you also, the sign on the foreheads, and the sacraments of the churches, and die pureness of the sacrifices, you ought at once to break forth and affirm that it was for your Christ that the Creator's Spirit prophesied.
So the argument that not only Jesus's appearance in Jerusalem with the Cross but the contemporary signing with a T in the churches (early third century) are attributed to Ezekiel.

I think we can safely say - given to the Latin letter 'T' and the underlying moronic logic - that it was Tertullian who reshaped an original reference to Ezekiel by another author. That author's text was original directed against the Jews not the Marcionites as the Tertullian text Against the Jews testifies. We read there that this original reference to Ezekiel chapter 9 develops in the middle of section devoted to Ezekiel's prediction of the coming of Jesus at the end of a longer argument that the prophesies foretold the gospel. The original text must have been quite early (early - mid second century) and I have highlighted the changes made by a second hand too:
Now, if the hardness of your heart shall persist in rejecting and deriding all these interpretations, we will prove that it may suffice that the death of the Christ had been prophesied, in order that, from the fact that the nature of the death had not been specified, it may be understood to have been affected by means of the cross and that the passion of the cross is not to be ascribed to any but Him whose death was constantly being predicted. For I desire to show, in one utterance of Isaiah, His death, and passion, and sepulture. "By the crimes," he says, "of my people was He led unto death; and I will give the evil for His sepulture, and the rich for His death, because He did not wickedness, nor was guile found in his mouth; and God willed to redeem His soul from death," and so forth. He says again, moreover: "His sepulture hath been taken away from the midst." For neither was He buried except He were dead, nor was His sepulture removed from the midst except through His resurrection. Finally, he subjoins: "Therefore He shall have many for an heritage, and of many shall He divide spoils: " who else (shall so do) but He who "was born," as we have above shown?--"in return for the fact that His soul was delivered unto death? "For, the cause of the favour accorded Him being shown,--in return, to wit, for the injury of a death which had to be recompensed,--it is likewise shown that He, destined to attain these rewards because of death, was to attain them after death--of course after resurrection. For that which happened at His passion, that mid-day grew dark, the prophet Amos announces, saying, "And it shall be," he says, "in that day, saith the Lord, the sun shall set at mid-day, and the day of light shall grow dark over the land: and I will convert your festive days into grief, and all your canticles into lamentation; and I will lay upon your loins sackcloth, and upon every head baldness; and I will make the grief like that for a beloved (son), and them that are with him like a day of mourning." For that you would do thus at the beginning of the first month of your new (years) even Moses prophesied, when he was foretelling that all the community of the sons of lsrael was to immolate at eventide a lamb, and were to eat this solemn sacrifice of this day (that is, of the passover of unleavened bread) with bitterness; "and added that "it was the passover of the Lord," that is, the passion of Christ. Which prediction was thus also fulfilled, that "on the first day of unleavened bread" you slew Christ; and (that the prophecies might be fulfilled) the day hasted to make an "eventide,"--that is, to cause darkness, which was made at mid-day; and thus "your festive days God converted into grief, and your canticles into lamentation." For after the passion of Christ there overtook you even captivity and dispersion, predicted before through the Holy Spirit.

For, again, it is for these deserts of yours that Ezekiel announces your ruin as about to come: and not only in this age --a ruin which has already befallen--but in the "day of retribution," which will be subsequent. From which ruin none will be freed but he who shall have been frontally sealed with the passion of the Christ whom you have rejected. For thus it is written: "And the Lord said unto me, Son of man, thou hast seen what the elders of Israel do, each one of them in darkness, each in a hidden bed-chamber: because they have said, The Lord seeth us not; the Lord hath derelinquished the earth. And He said unto me, Turn thee again, and thou shall see greater enormities which these do. And He introduced me unto the thresholds of the gate of the house of the Lord which looketh unto the north; and, behold, there, women sitting and bewailing Thammuz. And the Lord said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen? Is the house of Judah moderate, to do the enormities which they have done? And yet thou art about to see greater affections of theirs. And He introduced me into the inner shrine of the house of the Lord; and, behold, on the thresholds of the house of the Lord, between the midst of the porch and between the midst of the altar, as it were twenty and five men have turned their backs unto the temple of the Lord, and their faces over against the east; these were adoring the sun. And He said unto me, Seest thou, son of man? Are such deeds trifles to the house of Judah, that they should do the enormities which these have done? because they have filled up (the measure of) their impieties, and, behold, are themselves, as it were, grimacing; I will deal with mine indignation, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I pity; they shall cry out unto mine ears with a loud voice, and I will not hear them, nay, I will not pity. And He cried into mine ears with a loud voice, saying, The vengeance of this city is at hand; and each one had vessels of extermination in his hand. And, behold, six men were coming toward the way of the high gate which was looking toward the north, and each one's double-axe of dispersion was in his hand: and one man in the midst of them, clothed with a garment reaching to the feet, and a girdle of sapphire about his loins: and they entered, and took their stand close to the brazen altar. And the glory of the God of Israel, which was over the house, in the open court of it, ascended from the cherubim: and the Lord called the man who was clothed with the garment reaching to the feet, who had upon his loins the girdle; and said unto him, Pass through the midst of Jerusalem, and write the sign Tau on the foreheads of the men who groan and grieve over all the enormities which are done in their midst. And while these things were doing, He said unto an hearer, Go ye after him into the city, and cut short; and spare not with your eyes, and pity not elder or youth or virgin; and little ones and women slay ye all, that they may be thoroughly wiped away; but all upon whom is the sign Tau approach ye not; and begin with my saints." Now the mystery of this "sign" was in various ways predicted; (a "sign") in which the foundation of life was forelaid for mankind; (a "sign") in which the Jews were not to believe: just as Moses beforetime kept on announcing in Exodus, saying, "Ye shall be ejected from the land into which ye shall enter; and in those nations ye shall not be able to rest: and there shall be instabilityof the print of thy foot: and God shall give thee a wearying heart, and a pining soul, and failing eyes, that they see not: and thy life shall hang on the tree before thine eyes; and thou shalt not trust thy life."

And so, since prophecy has been fulfilled through His advent--that is, through the nativity, which we have above commemorated, and the passion, which we have evidently explained--that is the reason withal why Daniel said, "Vision and prophet were sealed; "because Christ is the "signet" of all prophets, fulfilling all that had in days bygone been announced concerning Him: for, since His advent and personal passion, there is no longer "vision" or "prophet; "whence most emphatically he says that His advent "seals vision and prophecy." And thus, by showing "the number of the years, and the time of the lxii and an half fulfilled hebdomads," we have proved that at that specified time Christ came, that is, was born; and, (by showing the time) of the "seven and an half hebdomads," which are subdivided so as to be cut off from the former hebdomads, within which times we have shown Christ to have suffered, and by the consequent conclusion of the "lxx hebdomads," and the extermination of the city, (we have proved) that "sacrifice and unction" thenceforth cease.

Sufficient it is thus far, on these points, to have meantime traced the course of the ordained path of Christ, by which He is proved to be such as He used to be announced, even on the ground of that agreement of Scriptures, which has enabled us to speak out, in opposition to the Jews, on the ground of the prejudgment of the major part. For let them not question or deny the writings we produce; that the fact also that things which were foretold as destined to happen after Christ are being recognised as fulfilled may make it impossible for them to deny (these writings) to be on a par with divine Scriptures. Else, unless He were come after whom the things which were wont to be announced had to be accomplished, would such as have been completed be proved?
There is one overriding difference between the two interpretations of the tav alluded to (but explicitly referenced in Ezekiel) in Against Marcion 3 the signing is said to be carried on in the Christian churches; in Against the Jews the signing is applied to Jews who escape the holocaust at the end of the Jewish War. Even if the emboldened section is argued to have been added by the secondary hand which corrected (Justin's?) original statement to the Jews about the end of the Jewish War being prophesied by Ezekiel into a reference to 'the end times' generally, I think the sense is still there in the citation .
Stephan Huller
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Re: Tertullian Says the Stupidest Things

Post by Stephan Huller »

Does Tertullian ever mention reading, or knowing, the Bible in Hebrew? I suspect he, like the other Christians of his time, only knew the LXX. He must have been aware that there was a Hebrew version but of course thought the version he could actually read was the "correct" one, much like Christians today debating the superiority of the KJV versus RSV.
True but as I have just shown, the argument develops from an original source that 'doesn't go to town' with the Greek translation. The original source was addressing 'Jews' and so must have at least been sensitive to the idea that Ezekiel spoke and read Hebrew (duh, you think Tertullian?). While there isn't an explicit acknowledgement that that the Cross was X shaped Justin says that elsewhere (so too Irenaeus). The Jewish kings and priests were signed on their foreheads with a tav. So even though it isn't explicit I think the chances are better than not that the original author knew what Ezekiel inferred in the Hebrew text even if he didn't actually speak or read Hebrew himself.

I think this does bring up some important points:

1. the development of Against Marcion from original source material some of which was directed against Jews is absolutely under-appreciated. The argument that Marcion was Jewish or like the Jews appears over and over again in the rest of Tertullian's writings against Marcion.
2. that Tertullian's Against Marcion is a reworking of older material which has been 'warped' according to Tertullian incredibly small intellect. It's often like getting directions from someone whose never driven a car before.
3. I honestly can't decide whether Tertullian is out and out lying or misrepresenting the truth because he's just plain stupid and obsessed with ideas.
Stephan Huller
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Re: Tertullian Says the Stupidest Things

Post by Stephan Huller »

Notice also a little later in Tertullian's Against the Jews that Aquila's translation of Daniel was used:
Now, if (according to the Jews) He is hitherto not come, when He begins to come whence will He be anointed?264 [6] For the Law enjoined that, in captivity, it was not lawful for the unction of the royal chrism to be compounded.265 But, if there is no longer "unction" there266 as Daniel prophesied (for he says, "Unction shall be exterminated"), it follows that they267 no longer have it, because neither have they a temple where was the "horn"268 from which kings were wont to be anointed. [7] If, then, there is no unction, whence shall be anointed the "leader" who shall be born in Bethlehem? or how shall he proceed "from Bethlehem," seeing that of the seed of Israel none at all exists in Bethlehem.
I also wonder because of what following in Against Marcion 3 whether or not some of the original references to christos were original to chrestos and whether chrestos was epitomized by the X sign used as a 'check' mark in manuscripts to mean something like 'this section is ok' correct, corrected etc.
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