Dating Ireneus Book III Greek copy

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DCHindley
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Re: Dating Ireneus Book III Greek copy

Post by DCHindley »

Thankfully I found another source that explains the manuscript tradition and critical editions much more clearly than Harvey could bring himself to do.

(Hitchcock, Francis Ryan Montgomery) Irenaeus of Lugdunum - A Study of His Teaching (1914)
With regard to the classification of the Latin documents, Dr Loofs' pamphlet (Friedrich Loofs, Irenaeus-Handschriften, 1888, 1890) is to be consulted. [Loofs, who thought Irenaeus was, if anything, a bad theologian, and perhaps not even a theologian at all, later published a book, Theophilus von Antiochien Adversus Marcionem und die anderen theologischen Quellen bei Itenaeus (Leipzig: J.C. Hinrichs, 1930)]

As Stieren pointed out in his edition, there are two principal families of the Latin translation, the one represented by the Clermont and Voss MSS. and the other by the Arundel MS.

Some years ago Cardinal Pitra, librarian of the Vatican, discovered four Roman MSS, two parchment codices, Vat. 188, and Ottobon. 752, and two [47] paper MSS., Vat.. 187 and Ottobon. 1154. But these MSS. are shown by Professor Loofs to be junior members of the Arundel family.

It is to be remembered that Erasmus used three copies of the text, one sent to him by John Faber, and the other two lent from a monastery.

Latinus Latinius, 1513 1593, worked upon another manuscript which is now called the Vatican.

Feuardent speaks of another which the Parisian, Jean de Saint Andre, lent him, and from which he copied the concluding five chapters of the treatise.

Grabe employed the Arundel MS., a list of the readings from the excellent manuscripts of Isaac Voss, and a copy of variant readings made by Mercer from two unknown manuscripts.

[...]

Massuet used three manuscripts, one belonging to the College of Clermont, another copied by the hand of Passeratius, and a third in the possession of Cardinal Ottobon.

Stieren preferred the Vossian,

but Harvey thought more of the Arundel.

[[Professor Loofs had the Codex Vossianus before him.]] After a comparison of the MSS., as regards writing, readings, use of abbreviations, and Greek capitals, division of chapters, and omission or insertion of arguments, Professor Loofs compiled a genealogical table ascribing the Clermont to the ninth century, the Arundel to the thirteenth, and the Vossian to the fourteenth.

He also points out that the oldest Roman MSS., the Vatican and the Ottobon, were in all probability written in the South of France, being brought from that country by Thomas Parentucelli (circ. 1435), afterwards Nicholas V.

Professor Loofs does not hold it impossible that the arguments of the five books were from the pen of Irenaeus. In V (p. 80), he points out, there are Greek capitals for numbers instead of Roman in [48] the second book, and the arguments appear to be a translation from the Greek (pg. 61).

He throws light on the interest England has always taken in Irenaeus, by identifying the old manuscript employed by Feuardent with the Voss, which was called after Isaac Voss, a learned Canon of Windsor, in whose possession it was after Feuardent procured it from Jean de Saint André.

He would also identify the Clermont MS. with an Irenaeus [ms.] which Delisle found in the catalogue of the famous library of the monastery of Corbie, and which probably then passed into the hands of the Jesuits of Clermont, and is now in the possession of Mr John Fenwick, son-in-law of Sir John Phillips, who purchased it from the Jesuits.

The Arundel manuscript, the principal member of the second family of these MSS., was purchased (most probably from the library of Willibald Pirkheimer) by Thomas Earl of Arundel (1636), became the property of the Duke of Norfolk, his grandson, [and] was presented by him to the Royal Society (1681), and since 1831 is in the British Museum.

The dawn of the Reformation witnessed a great revival of studies in the work of Irenaeus, who was regarded by Reformers as the great patristic authority on the Eucharist. The interpretations of the treatise are, accordingly, as conflicting as they are numerous, Franciscans, Jesuits, Calvinists and Lutherans claiming an advocate for their special views in the author. And the controversy grew so warm between the Romans and the Lutherans that it is alleged and as it appears proved that Pfaff (1715) made use of certain unauthentic fragments to support his case.

The principal editions were brought out by Erasmus (1526), Feuardent, Gallasius of [49] Geneva (with Greek text from Epiphanius), Grabe (with fragments published at Oxford, 1702), Massuet (1710, reprinted by Migne, 1857), Stieren (1853), and Harvey of Cambridge (1857).

Harvey collated for his edition the Clermont and Arundel MSS. of the Latin text, and gives interesting facsimiles of the two manuscripts, the former of which is written in a bold Italian hand and the latter in a heavy Flemish style. He points out that the former ends abruptly at V. 26, and that the readings of the Arundel represent a different family of codices.

Harvey, who held that Syriac was the native tongue of Irenaeus, also made use of a Syriac translation.

He shows that Grabe and Massuet did their work faithfully.

There are also fragments of an Armenian interpolated version first published by Cardinal Pitra in his Spicilegium Solesmense (tome 1).
This stuff sometimes comes off a lot like following a drunk driver who swerves this way ands then that.

DCH :cheers:
jamescarvin
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Re: Dating Ireneus Book III Greek copy

Post by jamescarvin »

Nice overview, DCHindley! Thanks :). I wished I could find online copy of a linguistic analysis showing the reasoning behind determining that the Latin is a copy of the extant Greek rather than the other way around, however, given this body of manuscript supply the only text that really matters is from Book III in this case since it is just a scrap disconnected from the Book I source. Plus there's the bottom line. Everyone has a right to know the strength of the basis for RC assertions. The other portions from the first book are important only to those standing up for gnosticism. The argument that Against Heresies had insufficient copy to be considered catholic misses the point. The same anti-gnostic themes are found in Justin, Tatian, Hippolytus, Eusebius and others, making it catholic either way. What we don't find early on and universally is the extreme of episcopal authority found in paragraph two and if the Greek of paragraph three is merely a scrap from Eusebius (Ecc Hist. V:6) then this whole issue does hinge on one man we know to have reasons to grant his friend the Emperor assurance his kingdom's interests would not be subverted by the church and as it turns out, a lot of money was sent from all the churches to Rome in subsequent years. Sweet. So the motive for Eusebius to interpolate passages such as these, showing both a lineage to Peter and "pre-eminent authority" belonging to the bishop of Rome, is certainly present, but did he do that? And are these first two paragraphs Latin copy only? We may never know. Perhaps Eusebius took some local legend seriously. Tertullian's mocking comment shows Rome was claiming the power of the keys as early as the beginning of the third century so it is not as though there is no substance to it, perhaps even substance that a scrap creator like Eusebius may have wished to use as a historical revisionist very deliberately, thinking that it was better for the Kingdom of heaven if there was a Roman alliance, even if he had to fabricate it. My position on all this is to offer up the apparent room for doubt as a means to interdenominational unity rather than side for or against the RCs. It is a matter of faith and does take a step, if not a leap of faith to take one side or another. As much as we like to defend our faith I think it is better, after all, if we agree to disagree and focus on the matters of faith and reason that build us up rather than divide us.
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DCHindley
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Re: Dating Ireneus Book III Greek copy

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My opinion is that Irenaeus was not actively trying to bolster episcopal authority, it was simply the norm in his era for the kind of Christianity he was associated with. Irenaeus, Harvey notes, was translated into Syriac and he himself seems to use a NT with readings common to the Syriac, so "catholic = orthodox" Christianity was probably established there in the Roman east (at least in Asia Minor) as well as the Roman west.

Irenaeus was probably the earliest and strongest advocates for the use of books which were ultimately "canonized" as the NT. David Trobisch has proposed that sets of books found in our present day NT were originally published by Polycarp of Smyrna, who Irenaeus claimed was his mentor. For whatever reason, conspiracy of not, it was only these sets of books that were accepted by all churches in time (with some exceptions, such as 2 & 3 John or 2 Peter or James or Jude or the Revelation).

It was Ignatius of Antioch whose books heavily promoted episcopal authority, but these are not universally accepted as authentic, as are other books believed to have been written by the "apostolic fathers" (1 Clement, Mathetes, Diognetus, Barnabas). For more about the battle to establish a patriarchal style episcopal authority to the exclusion of independent expression and egalitarianism, see Elaine Pagels.

If you want to explore the idea that Irenaeus didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground when it came to Gnosticism, see G R S Mead, Fragments of a Faith Forgotten, written at the turn of the 20th century, close to 40 years before the Nag Hammadi manuscripts were discovered. Some modern scholars are arguing that the Nag Hammadi library proves that Irenaeus was right on the button, but Gnosticism had so many twists and turns to it that folks have turned the fact that he was occasionally right (or at least seemed to be, as a broken clock is right twice a day) into "proof" that Gnosticism was derivative of Christianity, as opposed to sister movements, etc.

DCH
jamescarvin wrote:Nice overview, DCHindley! Thanks :). I wished I could find online copy of a linguistic analysis showing the reasoning behind determining that the Latin is a copy of the extant Greek rather than the other way around, however, given this body of manuscript supply the only text that really matters is from Book III in this case since it is just a scrap disconnected from the Book I source.

Plus there's the bottom line. Everyone has a right to know the strength of the basis for RC assertions.

The other portions from the first book are important only to those standing up for gnosticism. The argument that Against Heresies had insufficient copy to be considered catholic misses the point. The same anti-gnostic themes are found in Justin, Tatian, Hippolytus, Eusebius and others, making it catholic either way.

What we don't find early on and universally is the extreme of episcopal authority found in paragraph two and if the Greek of paragraph three is merely a scrap from Eusebius (Ecc Hist. V:6) then this whole issue does hinge on one man we know to have reasons to grant his friend the Emperor assurance his kingdom's interests would not be subverted by the church and as it turns out, a lot of money was sent from all the churches to Rome in subsequent years. Sweet.

So the motive for Eusebius to interpolate passages such as these, showing both a lineage to Peter and "pre-eminent authority" belonging to the bishop of Rome, is certainly present, but did he do that? And are these first two paragraphs Latin copy only? We may never know.

Perhaps Eusebius took some local legend seriously. Tertullian's mocking comment shows Rome was claiming the power of the keys as early as the beginning of the third century so it is not as though there is no substance to it, perhaps even substance that a scrap creator like Eusebius may have wished to use as a historical revisionist very deliberately, thinking that it was better for the Kingdom of heaven if there was a Roman alliance, even if he had to fabricate it.

My position on all this is to offer up the apparent room for doubt as a means to interdenominational unity rather than side for or against the RCs. It is a matter of faith and does take a step, if not a leap of faith to take one side or another. As much as we like to defend our faith I think it is better, after all, if we agree to disagree and focus on the matters of faith and reason that build us up rather than divide us.
jamescarvin
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Re: Dating Ireneus Book III Greek copy

Post by jamescarvin »

Normally, I'm content to leave the question of Gnosticism to others as it doesn't seem too relevant other than the kingdom within part, which is not that part of Gnosticism Ireneus seems to be addressing in his copious work. On episcopal authority, I agree he thought it was a given but to suppose that the Gnostics were directly connected to the apostles would require better proof on the Nag Hamadi people's part and to suppose that the NT is preceded by Nag Hamadi texts and conclude from this that there was greater proximity to the teaching of the apostles by virtue of the supposed antiquity of its manuscripts is to ignore the possibility that the reason these texts were kept was not because they were adhered to but because it was necessary to possess and understand them in order to address them fairly. That they were found buried outside a monastery may indicate suppression but also indicates a majority disfavoring them at the least and possibly the sentiment of the monk who disposed of them, as well. Were there Nag Hamadi like texts appearing in copies in multiple languages over a longer stretch of time and were they not so flavored with the non-Monotheist extensions found in Ireneus I might offer it more credance but it appears to me that both from a catholic perspective in terms of acceptance of manuscripts and from the internal coherency of the New Testament itself that the only way to work gnosticism into a genuine first century teaching of Jesus is to reduce it to the kingdom within. I see no evidence of any early objection to the epistles of Ignatius. I know that the two versions of his letters are not exactly the same but do roughly correspond. To say that they are not authentic is another matter. Very often when confronted with possessing only late manuscripts the problem is not that earlier ones did not exist but that they were not preserved. We are left with theories and probabilities rather than certainies. What are the comparative manuscript trails you find for St. Iggy?
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DCHindley
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Re: Dating Ireneus Book III Greek copy

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jamescarvin wrote:Normally, I'm content to leave the question of Gnosticism to others as it doesn't seem too relevant other than the kingdom within part, which is not that part of Gnosticism Irenaeus seems to be addressing in his copious work.

On episcopal authority, I agree he thought it was a given but to suppose that the Gnostics were directly connected to the apostles would require better proof on the Nag Hamadi people's part and to suppose that the NT is preceded by Nag Hamadi texts and conclude from this that there was greater proximity to the teaching of the apostles by virtue of the supposed antiquity of its manuscripts is to ignore the possibility that the reason these texts were kept was not because they were adhered to but because it was necessary to possess and understand them in order to address them fairly.

That they were found buried outside a monastery may indicate suppression but also indicates a majority disfavoring them at the least and possibly the sentiment of the monk who disposed of them, as well.

Were there Nag Hamadi like texts appearing in copies in multiple languages over a longer stretch of time and were they not so flavored with the non-Monotheist extensions found in Ireneus I might offer it more credance but it appears to me that both from a catholic perspective in terms of acceptance of manuscripts and from the internal coherency of the New Testament itself that the only way to work gnosticism into a genuine first century teaching of Jesus is to reduce it to the kingdom within.
There were other gnostic texts known before the Nag Hammadi library came to light. The Sophia of Jesus Christ and the Books of Jeu, for instance. If you ask me, they are even more bizarre than the books of the NH library. At least in the later you can occasionally detect a whiff of the kind of Gnosticism that Irenaeus and the rest spoke of. However, a reading of Epiphanius' Panarion (Medicine Chest) will show that early Christian heresiologists were not very good at categorizing things and often seemed to conflate heresies or create more than one name for the same basic heresy, or attribute characteristics they associate with one heresy to others for very tenuous or superficial reasons.
I see no evidence of any early objection to the epistles of Ignatius.

I know that the two versions of his letters are not exactly the same but do roughly correspond.

To say that they are not authentic is another matter.

Very often when confronted with possessing only late manuscripts the problem is not that earlier ones did not exist but that they were not preserved.

We are left with theories and probabilities rather than certainties.

What are the comparative manuscript trails you find for St. Iggy?
Haven't looked. Of the two Greek versions, the longer one is certainly redacted to include a huge number of NT and OT citations that are not to be found in the shorter version. However, even the longer version sometimes has quotations from unknown gospels that are not in the shorter version, although the shorter version has them too.

DCH
Roger Pearse
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Re: Dating Ireneus Book III Greek copy

Post by Roger Pearse »

The manuscripts of the Adv. Haer. are listed above.

The manuscripts of Eusebius' "Church History" quote from the text of the Adv. Haer. and identify the author as Irenaeus. The oldest manuscript of this is a copy of the Syriac translation of the Church History, which is 5th century.
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