The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by rakovsky » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:12 pm

Revelation 13:18 literally says:
18. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
It does not actually say that it is the number of "a man" like it is often translated.

The verse is implying that 666 is in a sense the number of man, in my theory.
Man was created on the 6th day in Genesis 1. Man is associated with 6.
Back in the story of Solomon building his Temple, Solomon set himself up as an earthly ruler, getting 666 talents of gold each year, in violation of an explicit warning earlier in the TaNaKh against kings "multiplying" their gold or wealth.
My guess then is that 666 is seen as something like mankind deifying himself, since a trinity or threesome, as in 6 6 6 has divine associations in the Bible, like the three angels visiting Abraham who were identified as God in that story.
The Beast in Revelation is the AntiChrist, a human ruler who sets himself up as a false Christ, demanding worship, which goes along with the theory above about 666 alluding to man deifying himself.
This view of the "Beast" also goes along with the Roman emperor demanding worship. It's pretty likely then that 666 was also meant in terms of gematria or numerology to point to the spelling of a Roman emperor's name like Caesar Nero.
The instructions in verse 18 to "count" the number of the beast could be an allusion to numerology and gematria.

So my theory is that 666 was meant both as a numerological allusion to man deifying himself ("the number of man" in verse 18), and it was also meant to allude to the Roman emperor whom the chapter's context identified with the Beast and whose name and title could add up to the same number counting.

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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:23 pm

rakovsky wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:12 pm
Revelation 13:18 literally says:
18. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
It does not actually say that it is the number of "a man" like it is often translated.
This is misleading. There is no indefinite article in Greek. Therefore, "of man" and "of a man" come out exactly the same in Greek.

The passage specifically says that the number is the number of the name of the beast. Unless the author is deliberately lying to us in some kind of weird "gotcha" maneuver, the game is gematria.

You eventually get there:
This view of the "Beast" also goes along with the Roman emperor demanding worship. It's pretty likely then that 666 was also meant in terms of gematria or numerology to point to the spelling of a Roman emperor's name like Caesar Nero.
Yes, exactly. And it is of course perfectly possible that the number had some other significance for the author; the significance which you suggest — 6 being the day on which man was created — is a theory I have heard in evangelical circles. The difference between this other significance (whatever it may be) and gematria is that the author tells us that the game is gematria, whereas he says nothing about any other kind of meaning.
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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by Joseph D. L. » Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:02 am

rakovsky wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:12 pm
Revelation 13:18 literally says:
18. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
It does not actually say that it is the number of "a man" like it is often translated.

The verse is implying that 666 is in a sense the number of man, in my theory.
Man was created on the 6th day in Genesis 1. Man is associated with 6.
Back in the story of Solomon building his Temple, Solomon set himself up as an earthly ruler, getting 666 talents of gold each year, in violation of an explicit warning earlier in the TaNaKh against kings "multiplying" their gold or wealth.
My guess then is that 666 is seen as something like mankind deifying himself, since a trinity or threesome, as in 6 6 6 has divine associations in the Bible, like the three angels visiting Abraham who were identified as God in that story.
The Beast in Revelation is the AntiChrist, a human ruler who sets himself up as a false Christ, demanding worship, which goes along with the theory above about 666 alluding to man deifying himself.
This view of the "Beast" also goes along with the Roman emperor demanding worship. It's pretty likely then that 666 was also meant in terms of gematria or numerology to point to the spelling of a Roman emperor's name like Caesar Nero.
The instructions in verse 18 to "count" the number of the beast could be an allusion to numerology and gematria.

So my theory is that 666 was meant both as a numerological allusion to man deifying himself ("the number of man" in verse 18), and it was also meant to allude to the Roman emperor whom the chapter's context identified with the Beast and whose name and title could add up to the same number counting.
I don't understand what your overall rebuff is. First you argue that man is generic, referring to mankind, then you argue that man is specific, referring to one individual, the antichrist.

The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.

The context is that of a single, specific individual, i.e. the emperor himself.

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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by Joseph D. L. » Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:09 am

It does not actually say that it is the number of "a man" like it is often translated.
All of the translations I looked up, (ESV, KJV, ASV, NIV), translate ἀνθρώπου as "a man", singular. If you have a reason as to why ἀνθρώπου should be generic than I would very much like to hear it. And no, I'm not being facetious.

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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by rakovsky » Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:29 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:23 pm
rakovsky wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:12 pm
Revelation 13:18 literally says:
18. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
It does not actually say that it is the number of "a man" like it is often translated.
This is misleading. There is no indefinite article in Greek. Therefore, "of man" and "of a man" come out exactly the same in Greek.

The passage specifically says that the number is the number of the name of the beast.
Ben,

Your knowledge of Greek is impressive and you are saying that here it has "a man" or "man" because there is no definite article. I read that Greek has an indefinite article, but I take it based on your reply that this is probably just modern Greek (https://langintro.com/greek/grammar/article2.html)

Daniel B. Wallace, in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics - Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament makes the case that grammatically the verse likely says "of Man" instead of "of a man":
“If ἀνθρώπου [anthrōpou] is generic, then the sense is, ‘It is [the] number of humankind.’ It is significant that this construction fits Apollonius’ Canon (i.e., both the head noun and the genitive are anarthrous), suggesting that if one of these nouns is definite, then the other is, too. Grammatically, those who contend that the sense is ‘it is [the] number of a man’ have the burden of proof on them (for they treat the head noun, ἀριθμὸς [arithmos] , as definite and the genitive, ἀνθρώπου [anthrōpou] , as indefinite—the rarest of all possibilities). In light of Johannine usage, we might also add Rev. 16:18, where the Seer clearly uses the anarthrous ἂνθρωπος [anthrōpos] in a generic sense, meaning ‘humankind.’

The implications of this grammatical possibility, exegetically speaking, are simply that the number ‘666’ is the number that represents humankind. Of course, an individual is in view, but his number may be the number representing all of humankind. Thus the Seer might be suggesting here that the antichrist, who is the best representative of humanity without Christ (and the best counterfeit of a perfect man that his master, that old serpent, could muster), is still less than perfection (which would have been represented by the number seven).”
https://www.biblestudytools.com/comment ... tml#58441E
Wallace is referring to Revelation 16:18:
And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since Man (ἄνθρωπος) was upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
So in that verse in Rev. 16, John used "Man" in the abstract sense of Mankind.

Anthony Garland debates Wallace's point in his book A Testimony of Jesus Christ, writing:
Ἀριθμὸς ἀνθρώπου [Arithmos anthrōpou] , simply number of man. The definite article (“the”) is not found in the Greek text. Wallace sees the missing article as an indication that the number is not of a man, but the number of humankind.1 While this may account for the grammar, it fails to account for the previous verse wherein the article appears before both number and man: τὸν ἀριθμὸν τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ [ton arithmon tou onomatos autou] , the number of the name of him (cf. Rev. 14:11). Thus, the number seems inextricably tied to the individual. Some explain of a man as designating a number as men count.
Unfortunately, while I get the point that in Revelation 16:18 John refers to Man, Mankind, I don't really understand the other arguments that he and Garland are making against each other.



Rev. 13:18 says that the number of the beast is the number of "a man" or "man". Someone following along with the passage might already guess that the beast is "a man", so it might be redundant to assert that it is the number of "a man". But it would not be redundant to assert that it is the number of "man". Plus, why does it not say "count the number of the beast for he is man/a man", but rather says "count the number of the beast, for it is the number of man/a man"? The difference is that whereas the former is simpler and clearly equates the number with the beast, the latter is more ambiguous, leading to a dilemma between whether the reference is to Man or "a man."

The phrase ἀνθρώπου shows up in Revelation in four other places, where it refers to "of Man" or to "a Man."
Revelation 1:13 and 14:14 refers to the concept of the Son of Man.
Revelation 21:17 has: "And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of Man / a man, that is, of the angel."
The phrase "the measure of Man" or "the measure of a man" brings to mind the phrase "the number of Man/ a man" in Revelation 13's verse about the the number of the beast. In Revelation 21:17, the measure of Man/a man means the cubits are measured in the way that Mankind or a man in the generic sense would measure the cubits. Or it is talking about the cubits being measured according to the measure of a particular man, that is, the angel who is measuring the holy apocalyptic temple's walls. In that interpretation, the particular man is the same as the angel. A man who is identified as the angel could conceivably be Christ in the eyes of the author, and could be "he that sat upon the throne" in verse 5 in Chapter 21.

144 in Rev. 21 is the number of cubits according to the measure of man, and also in Revelation, there are 144,000 righteous Jews. 144 = 12 X 12. Conceivably then, this is a number associated with the "Body of Christ", the Christian Community in the author's theology. This might make sense in light of the 144 cubits being the wall of the holy new "city", since the city would be the city or community belonging to the Christians in the author's theology.

Based on the number 144 being the number associated with the Christian community and the number of cubits "according to the measure 'of Man'" who is the angel, one could find an antithesis in the number 666 that is the "number of Man" or the number of "a man" who is the beast. That is, whereas 144 is associated with the Christian people, the collective "new man" or "new Adam", 666 is associated with the collective of Man or Mankind in a different, earthly way or earthly power.


It makes sense conceptually to put Rev. 13:18 as either one:
"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of Man / a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
The idea that the reader has special wisdom about the number of man would make sense. The beast/Antichrist having a self-deified number of Man also makes sense. And the Antichrist's number being the number of the 666 talents of gold that violated the warning about kings' multiplied wealth also makes sense conceptually.

At the same time, the author could conceivably be inviting the reader to understand the number of the beast (666) as having a gematrial "counting", and could be saying that the number of the beast (Antichrist) is the number of a particular man, eg. Caesar Nero.
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:23 pm
And it is of course perfectly possible that the number had some other significance for the author; the significance which you suggest — 6 being the day on which man was created — is a theory I have heard in evangelical circles. The difference between this other significance (whatever it may be) and gematria is that the author tells us that the game is gematria, whereas he says nothing about any other kind of meaning.
Certainly, the number had some other significance for the author, who was familiar with the TaNaKh. There, Solomon built his temple while receiving 666 talents of gold per year for it. And the context of Revelation 13's passage here on the beast is that the number of the beast is required for people to buy and sell. So the 666 is a requirement for trading worldly goods. And gold was often used for currency. So the 666 appears linked to the story of the 666 in Solomon's use, where the 666 talents of gold are also portrayed negatively as the king multiplying his wealth in violation of an explicit TaNaKh warning on the question.

So my take is that it is both a reference to the 666 in Solomon's story as well as a reference to the gematria of the emperor's name.
And why did 666 appear in the story of Solomon centuries before Revelation was written or the emperor Nero was born? The number likely was considered to have some significance for the Tanakh author, as it's widely considered that numbers were also given spiritual significance in the TaNaKh at times.

And here it is worth noting that on Day 6 of Creation, both Man and beast were made on the 6th day. This would in a sense make 6 the number of the beast as a category of created being, as well as a number associated with mankind.

So conceivably the number of the beast is the number of a particular man's (Nero's) name, but it is also the number associated with something else, the number of the talents that were multiplied to make an offensive amount of worldly wealth.

M.G. Michael reviews the interpretations that scholars have given to the Biblical 666 in his essay "Demystifying the number of the beast in the book
of revelation: examples of ancient cryptology and the interpretation of the “666” conundrum"
(https://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.c ... infopapers), including the scholars saying that it refers to the number of man.

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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by rakovsky » Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:41 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:02 am
I don't understand what your overall rebuff is. First you argue that man is generic, referring to mankind, then you argue that man is specific, referring to one individual, the antichrist.

The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.

The context is that of a single, specific individual, i.e. the emperor himself.
Joseph,

Sure, as you note, it is the number of the beast's name.
In addition, my theory is that the 666 refers to both the number of Man in some sense and to the number of a specific man, the emperor who is "a man".
This would be like an antithesis to the concept of "Christ's body" in the New Testament. There, "Christ's body" is one physical body, the "corpus" of one man on earth, Jesus of Nazareth, but it is also treated as a "corporal" body, the collective "body" of believers.

So for instance in Revelation 7, an angel says:
3. “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”
4. Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5. From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
(etc.)
Then in Revelation 21, John records the thickness of the wall of the heavenly city where the blessed live:
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of Man (or 'a man'), that is, of the angel.
So 144 is treated as a number of something holy, both associated with the number of a collective number of holy Israelites and with the wall that is around the city where the collective blessed live.

In what sense are the 144 cubits "according to the measure" of Man or "a man"? Aren't cubits a standard measurement? Since it doesn't make much sense to assert this literally, I think that John could be meaning that the measurement "according to" the Man in some allegorical or spiritual sense.

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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by rakovsky » Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:58 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:09 am
All of the translations I looked up, (ESV, KJV, ASV, NIV), translate ἀνθρώπου as "a man", singular.
Sure, that's common. Others go:
Pulpit Commentary:
It is the "number of man;" that is, it describes symbolically something which is peculiarly a characteristic of mankind. Some writers have understood the words to mean, "the number refers to an individual man;" but the absence of the article militates against this view. Others explain, "It is a number which is to be reckoned according to man's mode of reckoning," just as in Revelation 21:17, "a measure of a man." If this be the meaning, it leaves open the question as to what St. John meant by "the usual mode of man's reckoning." His own use of numerals throughout the Apocalypse is, as we have repeatedly seen, symbolical of general qualities, and does not indicate either individuals or exact numbers. We are justified, therefore, according to this view, in interpreting the number symbolically (vide supra).

Jubilee Bible 2000
Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the number of the beast: for the number of man; and its number <em>is</em> six hundred sixty-six.

Wycliffe Bible
Here is wisdom; he that hath understanding, acount the number of the beast; for it is the number of man, and his number is six hundred sixty and six.

D.S. Clark's Commentary
"Its number is the number of MAN" (not "A" , as the A.V. wrongly translates. There is no article "A" in the Greek text. Nor is the Living Bible correct for it gives the misreading "the numerical values of the letters in his name amount to 666.") The text really says "Its number is the NUMBER OF MAN."

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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by Joseph D. L. » Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:40 pm

All of this seems arbitrary. You're effectively admitting to picking and choosing what you want to use. Which is fine, I do it too. But at least admit that's what you're doing.

Strong's Concordance:

anthrópos: a man, human, mankind

The Greek ἀνθρώπου is context dependent and can denote a singular or generic form. So anyone arguing that the singular is not denotable is being deliberately disingenuous.
Sure, as you note, it is the number of the beast's name.
In addition, my theory is that the 666 refers to both the number of Man in some sense and to the number of a specific man, the emperor who is "a man".
So what is your issue? The context gives you the answer as to how ἀνθρώπου should be interpreted. It's referring, specifically, to the Beast, singular, who issues the mark, and his name is 666/616.

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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by davidmartin » Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:06 pm

One key point here...

Everyone has this focus on Revelation? sure, because it got accepted into canonical scripture and is a dramatic, powerful scripture. that's obvious maybe, but also as obvious is how it evidently represents only one wing or branch of the broader early Christian movement
I'd argue it represents quite a narrow branch, given it's difficulty being accepted

So any hypothesis or theory that bases itself on revelation also must confess and, even better, seek to explain it's limited/narrow scope in representing the movement as a whole (which the work is self-aware of i'd argue)
figuring out who Mr 666 was in itself wouldn't really solve anything without the context of the entire document also mapped out and explained and just ignores one of the most basic fundamental questions

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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by rakovsky » Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:30 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:40 pm
So what is your issue? The context gives you the answer as to how ἀνθρώπου should be interpreted. It's referring, specifically, to the Beast, singular, who issues the mark, and his name is 666/616.
Sure. My theory is that it refers to both the gematrial number of a particular man, like you said, and it also refers to the number of Man, that is, it has a spiritual or allegorical meaning as well, as D. Wallace theorizes.
I see the use of 666 in Revelation 13 as related to 666 in the story of Solomon building the Temple. I see the 666 in the story of Solomon as having a symbolic meaning that carries over into its use in the story of Revelation 13.

These by the way are both common interpretations by Bible scholars. We are dealing with a visionary genre where something like a number can have numerous meanings and usages.

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