The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:02 am

DCHindley wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:42 am
I'm at lunch at work and have no resourced available here, but my opinion is that Irenaeus was just making wild guesses as to the word that should be associated with "666."

Since he is the first early Christian author to cite Revelation (IIRC),and even he was unsure what it symbolized, this suggests that by the time Polycarp was publishing his collections of Christian works (which Irenaeus was using as his corpus of sacred texts) the significance of the statement had long before been obscured by time.
Second, at best, at least on the standard chronologies of the various Christian texts. Justin Martyr summarizes chapter 20 of the Revelation, attributing it by name to "John, one of the apostles of Christ," in Dialogue 81.4. (Many scholars are certain that Papias, too, used the Revelation, but that topic is not quite as clear cut.)

I agree that Irenaeus was probably guessing.
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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:11 am

mistake
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by MrMacSon » Fri Mar 06, 2020 2:30 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:42 am

.... my opinion is that Irenaeus was just making wild guesses as to the word that should be associated with "666."

Since he is the first early Christian author to cite Revelation (IIRC),and even he was unsure what it symbolized, this suggests that by the time Polycarp was publishing his collections of Christian works (which Irenaeus was using as his corpus of sacred texts) the significance of the statement1 had long before been obscured by time.

Perhaps it was the lone example of a revered text preserved among "Jewish Christians." Christians who held a high Christology seem to have not used Revelation, maybe because it was so anti-Roman (Rome burning).

DCH
Hi, re 1 What statement are you referring to? Rev 13:17-18?

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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by rakovsky » Fri Mar 06, 2020 2:46 pm

Another indication that "the number of Man/a man" in Revelation 13 is meant in a generic sense is that all of the other 19 times that the word Anthropos and its variants are used in the book of Revelation, it refers to men or to a generic man. Here are quotes of all 20 times that the word is used:
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/pas ... 3;re+21:17

Some examples:

Revelation 4:7: "And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle."
The man and the beast in the verse are not specific ones in real life, but rather the beasts are like a generic man or beast.

Revelation 13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of Man / a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
Even if one chooses "a man" as the best interpretation, "a man" can still mean "a man" in a generic sense.
Further, if one does not limit "the beast" in the verse to one specific man alone, such as Nero, but rather opens it up to a class of men who are Anti-Christs like Hadrian (per the Nero redux theory) or Domitian, then "a man" could also be meant as a category of men or a generic man who symbolizes numerous anti-Christs.

Revelation 16:8: "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since man (Anthropos) was upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great."
This is the verse that Wallace draws attention to. It is not talking about the time when a specific man was on earth, but the time when mankind or man in general was on earth.

Revelation 21:17 (KJV): "And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel."
I think that this verse is especially related to Revelation 13. Whereas Revelation 13 refers to the number of the beast and equates it with the number "of a man", this in Revelation 21 verse talks about the measure "of a man" that is also the measure of an angel.
The four cubits are measured according to a generic man's measurement of cubits that is the same as the angel's, or the 144 cubits are according to the measurement of a man that is also the measure of the angel.
I frequently see this translated as if it refers to a man in the generic sense. For instance, the NAS version puts it: "And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements."
But my take is that since 144 is such a giant size, if you say that 144 cubits were the special measure of a particular, specific man, you would be taking it in a spiritual sense rather than a literal one, and you would be referring to the idea that Christ the God-Man has a corporate body, like how His "body" would include the 144,000 righteous Israelites mentioned earlier. So even if this case the specific man (Christ) would still be a collective or inclusive man.
Just as numerous anti-Christs might share the number name of 666, numerous Christians could share in some of Christ's attributes.
Anyway, 144 cubits, as a physical measure, would also be "according to the measure of a man" in general, because men in general have the same physical measurements.

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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by Joseph D. L. » Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:50 pm

All of those verses are inconsequential to 13:18, which I will remind you again, is specifically related to the mark issued by the Beast, singular, and that his, singular, number is six hundred and sixty six. The context determines how anthropos is translated. And the same is true for all of these verses you quoted.

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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by Joseph D. L. » Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:52 pm

What's the overall issue you have with how it is translated? You even acknowledged that man/a man is of little importance as the same meaning can be guessed either way. So what is your hang up with it?

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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by rakovsky » Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:08 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:52 pm
What's the overall issue you have with how it is translated? You even acknowledged that man/a man is of little importance as the same meaning can be guessed either way. So what is your hang up with it?
Greek contains an ambiguity that English might not. If John was writing in English, and he chose to write that this is the "number of Man", it would be a non-issue.
This kind of thing happens alot in translations. My best recommendation would be to have a footnote saying that there is an alternative translation (of Man / a man).

It is nice writing with you and Ben and others on the forum because you have alot of familiarity with thinking through these kinds of issues.

Peace. :cheers: :goodmorning:

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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by Joseph D. L. » Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:59 pm

rakovsky wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:08 pm

Greek contains an ambiguity that English might not. If John was writing in English, and he chose to write that this is the "number of Man", it would be a non-issue.
This kind of thing happens alot in translations. My best recommendation would be to have a footnote saying that there is an alternative translation (of Man / a man).
It seems like splitting hairs and most of the mainstream translations have it as a man. My overall theory isn't dependent on it. Man or a man really doesn't matter. My issue was that I couldn't understand why it mattered to you.
It is nice writing with you and Ben and others on the forum because you have alot of familiarity with thinking through these kinds of issues.
Maybe Ban and others. Honestly I just guess my way through this most of the time and there's still a lot that I don't know and need to learn.
Peace. :cheers: :goodmorning:
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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by DCHindley » Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:38 am

MrMacSon wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 2:30 pm
DCHindley wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:42 am

.... my opinion is that Irenaeus was just making wild guesses as to the word that should be associated with "666."

Since he is the first early Christian author to cite Revelation (IIRC),and even he was unsure what it symbolized, this suggests that by the time Polycarp was publishing his collections of Christian works (which Irenaeus was using as his corpus of sacred texts) the significance of the statement1 had long before been obscured by time.

Perhaps it was the lone example of a revered text preserved among "Jewish Christians." Christians who held a high Christology seem to have not used Revelation, maybe because it was so anti-Roman (Rome burning).

DCH
Hi, re 1 What statement are you referring to? Rev 13:17-18?
Sorry, I was referring to Irenaeus' statement:
ANF Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 5. 30:3 It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfilment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. For if there are many names found possessing this number, it will be asked which among them shall the coming man bear. It is not through a want of names containing the number of that name that I say this, but on account of the fear of God, and zeal for the truth:

for the [Greek] name Evanthas contains the required number, but I make no allegation regarding it.

Then also Lateinos has the number six hundred and sixty-six; and it is a very probable [solution], this being the name of the last kingdom [of the four seen by Daniel]. For the Latins are they who at present bear rule: I will not, however, make any boast over this [coincidence].

Teitan too, (TEITAN, the first syllable being written with the two Greek vowels e and i, among all the names which are found among us, is rather worthy of credit. For it has in itself the predicted number, and is composed of six letters, each syllable containing three letters; and [the word itself] is ancient, and removed from ordinary use; for among our kings we find none bearing this name Titan, nor have any of the idols which are worshipped in public among the Greeks and barbarians this appellation. Among many persons, too, this name is accounted divine, so that even the sun is termed "Titan" by those who do now possess [the rule]. This word, too, contains a certain outward appearance of vengeance, and of one inflicting merited punishment because he (Antichrist) pretends that he vindicates the oppressed. And besides this, it is an ancient name, one worthy of credit, of royal dignity, and still further, a name belonging to a tyrant. Inasmuch, then, as this name "Titan" has so much to recommend it, there is a strong degree of probability, that from among the many [names suggested], we infer, that perchance he who is to come shall be called "Titan."

We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign. (I have added paragraphs to make this nonesense more comprehensible)
DCH

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Re: The mystery of the mark of the Beast, 666/616, is solved and it proves I am right about Hadrian

Post by DCHindley » Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:23 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:02 am
[Irenaeus was] Second, at best, at least on the standard chronologies of the various Christian texts.

Justin Martyr summarizes chapter 20 of the Revelation, attributing it by name to "John, one of the apostles of Christ," in Dialogue 81.4.
Oops! Correct as always.
Justin, Dialogue, 81.4 (ANF vol 1)
And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place.

Rev 20:4-5 (RSV)
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
I noted that R H Charles (Commenray on Revelation, International Critical Commentary, 2 vols ca 1920, now superseded) had stated that there seems to have been corruptions and dislocations of text in this chapter, so what Irenaeus had (essentially Revelation as it has been transmitted in the NT canon) may not be exactly the identical text that Justin had referred to as from John.
(Many scholars are certain that Papias, too, used the Revelation, but that topic is not quite as clear cut.)
I was referred to the following Journal article, I think in SA's now deleted "mistake" post:

J. Chapman, "PAPIAS ON THE AGE OF OUR LORD" (Journal of Theological Studies Oct 1907, found in vol 9, 1908)
file:///C:/Users/dhind/OneDrive/Documents/Research/Books%20&%20Journals/(Various)%20Journal%20of%20Theological%20Studies,%20vol%209%20(1908).pdf

He shows that Irenaeus and Victorinus probably relayed info derived from Papias' lost works.

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