Feldman's Thirty Year Old List

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
PhilosopherJay
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Feldman's Thirty Year Old List

Post by PhilosopherJay »

Hi All,

I've seen this list on a number of Christian websites. It apparently comes from a list Louis Feldman published 30 years ago in 1984. It is a list of 35 scholars who held positions that the TF was mostly genuine or had been interpolated but had a core reference to Jesus: (4 scholars regard as completely genuine, 6 mostly genuine; 20 accept it with some interpolations, 9 with several interpolations; 13 regard it as being totally an interpolation.[ Feldman, Louis H. Josephus and Modern Scholarship. Berlin: Walter de Gruyter, 1984. P. 684-91] - from http://www.doxa.ws/Jesus_pages/HistJesus3.html)

In going through the list I noticed the majority of the scholars were theologians and clerics. I also noticed that several people, Steve Mason, Robert Eisler and Louis Feldman himself apparently, hold/held positions that are problematical for them to be on the list.

There were four scholars that I could not find enough information to determine if they were theologians or clerics. Does anybody know the background of these four list members:
Andre Pelletier, Paul Winter, Paul Mier and Alice Whealey.
Also in the case of Andre Pelletier, and Paul Mier, I was wondering where I could find their actual positions on the TF.

John P. Meier – Catholic Priest
Raymond Brown – Catholic Priest, Father Brown was the only U.S. biblical scholar ever appointed to the Pontifical Biblical Society by a Pope.
Graham Stanton - master's and bachelor of divinity degrees from the University of Otago as a student of Knox College, Dunedin., Brought up in the Salvation Army, he was licensed by the Presbyterian Church of New Zealand in 1965. He came to Westminster College, Cambridge, as a Lewis and Gibson scholar in 1966 to study for a PhD under Professor CFD Moule. In 1970, he was appointed to a lectureship at King's College London, becoming professor of New Testament in 1977: he stayed there until he was elected to the Lady Margaret's chair at Cambridge University in 1998.
N.T. Wright - Anglican bishop.
Paula Fredrickson - Ph.D in the history of religion from Princeton University and diploma in theology from Oxford
John D. Crossan - Catholic priest
E.P. Sanders - received a Th.D. from Union Seminary in NYC. In 1990 he received a D. Litt. from the University of Oxford and a Th.D. from the University of Helsinki.
Geza Vermes - Catholic priest
Louis Feldman - received his undergraduate degree from Trinity College, Hartford, CT in 1946 and his master’s degree the following year. In 1951, he received his doctoral degree in philology from Harvard
John Thackeray –died 1930 British biblical scholar at King's College, Cambridge,
Andre Pelletier
Paul Winter
A. Dubarle Catholic Theologian
Ernst Bammel Professor of Theology at Cambridge
Otto Betz - originated from a child-rich minister family. Evangelical.
Paul Mier
Ben Witherington - Born on December 30, 1951, from High Point, North Carolina, Witherington attended the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and graduated in 1974 with a Bachelor of Arts degree in English, along with minors in Philosophy and Religious Studies. He holds an M.Div. degree from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary and a Ph.D. from the University of Durham in England.
F.F. Bruce - Bruce was born in Elgin, Moray, in Scotland, the son of a Christian Brethren (Plymouth Brethren) preacher… Aberdeen University bestowed an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree on him in 1957.[
Luke T. Johnson – Catholic Priest
Craig Blomberg – Evangelical Theologian: completed his PhD in Doctoral category::New Testament, specializing in the parables and the writings of Luke-Acts, at Aberdeen University in Scotland. He received the MA from Attended seminary::Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and a BA from Augustana College.
J. Carleton Paget - Senior Lecturer in New Testament Studies in the Faculty of Divinity of the University of Cambridge.
Alice Whealey
J. Spencer Kennard - Evangelist Pastor who wrote "Psychic Power in Preaching"
R. Eisler - Austrian Jewish historian of art and culture,
Eisler has proposed only an hypothesis that the TF had an original negative core:
Now about this time arose an occasion for new disturbances, a certain Jesus, a wizard of a man, if indeed he may be called a man who was the most monstrous of all men, whom his disciples call a son of God, as having done wonders such as no man hath ever yet done…He was in fact a teacher of astonishing tricks to such men as accept the abnormal with delight…. And he seduced many also of the Greek nation and was regarded by them as the Messiah… And when, on the indictment of the principal men among us, Pilate had sentenced him to the cross, still those who before had admired him did not cease to rave. For it seemed to them that having been dead for three days, he had appeared to them alive again, as the divinely-inspired prophets had foretold -- these and ten thousand other wonderful things -- concerning him. And even now the race of those who are called "Messianists" after him is not extinct."
R.T. France – Anglican Cleric
Gary Habermas - Habermas is Distinguished Professor of Apologetics and Philosophy and chairman of the department of philosophy and theology at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia. He holds a Ph.D. (1976) from Michigan State University in the area of History and Philosophy of Religion and an M.A. (1973) from the University of Detroit in Philosophical Theology.
Robert Van Voorst -- He received his B.A. in Religion from Hope College in Holland, Michigan, his M.Div. from Western Theological Seminary, and his Ph.D. in New Testament from Union Theological Seminary in New York City.
Shlomo Pines - Died 1990, Between 1926 and 1934 Shlomo Pines studied philosophy, Semitic languages, and linguistics at the universities of Heidelberg, Geneva and Berlin
Edwin M. Yamuchi - As a youth, Yamauchi was sent to an Episcopalian school. But, by 1952, he had begun to shift towards evangelicalism. In his senior high school year Yamauchi studied at a rural school and worked at a missionary farm known as the Christian Youth Center. He is a founding member of the Oxford Bible Fellowship church in Oxford, Ohio. He was a supporter of the Inter Varsity Christian Fellowship throughout his career,
James Tabor - Tabor was born in Texas but lived all over the world as the son of an Air Force officer. He was raised in the Churches of Christ and attended Abilene Christian University, where he earned his B.A. degree in Greek and Bible. While earning his M.A. from Pepperdine University he taught Greek and Hebrew part-time at Ambassador College, founded by Herbert W. Armstrong, founder and president of the Worldwide Church of God.
Tabor earned his Ph.D. at the University of Chicago in 1981 in New Testament and Early Christian Literature,

John O'Connor-Murphy – Catholic Priest
Mark Goodacre - a New Testament scholar and Professor at Duke University's Department of Religion
Paula Frederiksen - She earned a Ph.D in the history of religion from Princeton University and diploma in theology from Oxford
David Flusser - a devout Orthodox Jew who applied his skills in Torah and Talmud to the study of ancient Greek, Roman and Arabic texts, as well as the Hebrew of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Steve Mason - Professor and Canada Research Chair (in Cultural Identity and Interaction in the Greco-Roman World) at York University in Toronto. Mason’s position is not quite an endorsement of the consensus that Josephus wrote something about Jesus, although he leans that way. Mason says “Consensus is likely to come only with a major new insight into the state of Josephus’ text before the fourth century, likely as the result of some new discovery. (pg. 174, Josephus and the New Testament”

Warmly,

Jay Raskin
ficino
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Re: Feldman's Thirty Year Old List

Post by ficino »

Jay, it looks as though Metacrock has posted the same list, or a variant of it:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=618&start=30#p12694

Paul Winter is a musician; I assume the guy on the list is a different Paul Winter.
Last edited by ficino on Fri May 30, 2014 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bernard Muller
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Re: Feldman's Thirty Year Old List

Post by Bernard Muller »

From http://historical-jesus.info/appe.html, as an explanation why so many Christian scholars keep the (main) TF as fully or partially authentic:
"In all likelihood, Josephus never wrote any Testimonium Flavianum.
Many liberal Christian scholars (and other ones) have accepted the existence of some expurgated "authentic" TF (but not necessarily the same one!), justifying their opinions by delicate one-sided argumentation. However, that should not be surprising, considering the (expurgated or not) Testimonium would be:
a) one among two or three least disputed items of external "proof" about Jesus' existence
b) the only piece of external evidence about Jesus which is favourable to him
c) the most detailed one
d) a passage which stresses Jesus as a popular sage/wise man, now the focus of many scholarly "studies" about the "historical Jesus""


Cordially, Bernard
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maryhelena
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Re: Feldman's Thirty Year Old List

Post by maryhelena »

PhilosopherJay wrote:Hi All,

<snip>

In going through the list I noticed the majority of the scholars were theologians and clerics. I also noticed that several people, Steve Mason, Robert Eisler and Louis Feldman himself apparently, hold/held positions that are problematical for them to be on the list.
<snip>

Steve Mason - Professor and Canada Research Chair (in Cultural Identity and Interaction in the Greco-Roman World) at York University in Toronto. Mason’s position is not quite an endorsement of the consensus that Josephus wrote something about Jesus, although he leans that way. Mason says “Consensus is likely to come only with a major new insight into the state of Josephus’ text before the fourth century, likely as the result of some new discovery. (pg. 174, Josephus and the New Testament”

Warmly,

Jay Raskin
Hi PhilosopherJay

It seems to me that Steve Mason is talking here about the various reconstructions of the TF - and not the core of the TF: ie after removal of the Christian interpolations. Thus, methinks, Mason would be in the camp that holds to the TF, minus the Christian interpolations, being authentic to Josephus.
Page 171

To have created the testimonium out of whole cloth would be
an act of unparalleled scribal audacity.

<snip>

Consequently, although some of the language in the testimonium is odd,
we have no linguistic basis for dismissing the whole paragraph

Page 173
The vast majority of commentators hold a middle position
between authenticity and inauthenticity, claiming that
Josephus wrote something about Jesus that was subsequently
edited by Christian copyists. Such a view has the best of both
worlds, for it recognizes all of the problems with the passage
as well as the factors that support its authenticity.

Page 174
Once it is granted that the standard text is corrupt,
a wide variety of hypothetical reconstructions must remain
equally plausible.

What, then, is the value of the testimonium flavianum for
the reader of the NT? Limited. Paradoxically, the intense effort
to reconstruct the "original" reading, in order to make it historically
useful, itself diminishes the value of the passage, for
each new reading has to share plausibility, so to speak, with all
other proposals on the table. No matter how convincing a
restoration may seem to any given interpreter, he or she will
not be able to put much weight on it in the course of scholarly
argumentation, in the knowledge that few others will accept
it. Unless one of the many proposals manages to win the
allegiance of a significant majority, this situation will continue
indefinitely. But consensus is likely to come only with a major
new insight into the state of Josephus' text before the fourth
century, likely as the result of some new discovery.
It would be unwise, therefore, to lean heavily on Josephus'
statements about Jesus' healing and teaching activity, or
the circumstances of his trial. Nevertheless, since most of
those who know the evidence agree that he said something
about Jesus, one is probably entitled to cite him as independent
evidence that Jesus actually lived, if such evidence
were needed.

Steve Mason: Josephus and the New Testament
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
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bcedaifu
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Re: Feldman's Thirty Year Old List

Post by bcedaifu »

Steve Mason wrote:To have created the testimonium out of whole cloth would be an act of unparalleled scribal audacity.
Not in the context of running an empire. Constantine ran his lance through the hearts of many soldiers to gain his throne. Do we genuinely imagine that he would have been taken aback by the concept of creating a legal document "whole cloth" to support his edict for a new state religion?

Scribal audacity? What do we imagine, some Charles Dickens type of mild mannered scholarly lad sitting crosslegged on a short stool, peering into the candle illuminated dark room, quill in hand, covered with ink, faithfully preserving the ancient text?

Nonsense. One wrote as directed, or one's head was no longer attached to the remainder of the digestive tract. You try marching through the desert, for weeks on end, with arrows and axes hurled at you, and then see whether or not you feel like sitting down for a nice evening of reflection and discussion, with colleagues, over the subtleties of Jewish commentators from two hundred years ago. Constantine ordered, Eusebius obeyed. End of story.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Feldman's Thirty Year Old List

Post by andrewcriddle »

PhilosopherJay wrote:
Geza Vermes - Catholic priest
Although Vermes was at one time a Catholic Priest, he later left the church and reasserted his Jewish identity.

Andrew Criddle
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DCHindley
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Re: Feldman's Thirty Year Old List

Post by DCHindley »

Any relation to albino musicians Edgar & Johnny Winter? :scratch:
ficino wrote:Paul Winter is a musician; I assume the guy on the list is a different Paul Winter.
Last edited by DCHindley on Fri May 30, 2014 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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spin
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Re: Feldman's Thirty Year Old List

Post by spin »

Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
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DCHindley
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Re: Feldman's Thirty Year Old List

Post by DCHindley »

spin wrote: Paul Winter
Then there was [wiki]Paul Winter (author)[/wiki], an albino (sans the lack of melanin) who was a Czech lawyer of Jewish extraction who fought the Nazis with the Brits, and then atoned for his lawyerly sins by working as a janitor while writing 100s of scholarly articles and a 1961 book about Jesus' trial and execution from the perspective of Jewish and Roman law.

DCH
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Re: Feldman's Thirty Year Old List

Post by spin »

ficino wrote:Paul Winter is a musician;
DCHindley wrote: Any relation to albino musicians Edgar & Johnny Winter? :scratch:
spin wrote: Paul Winter
So far, so good.
DCHindley wrote:Then there was [wiki]Paul Winter (author)[/wiki], an albino (sans the lack of melanin) who was a Czech lawyer of Jewish extraction who fought the Nazis with the Brits, and then atoned for his lawyerly sins by working as a janitor while writing 100s of scholarly articles and a 1961 book about Jesus' trial and execution from the perspective of Jewish and Roman law.
Really?

(And try the following:)

wiki=Paul Winter (author)]Paul Winter[/wiki

as in

[wiki=Paul Winter (author)]Paul Winter[/wiki]
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
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