Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Secret Alias
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Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:24 am

https://www.thedailybeast.com/everyones ... w-research
Instead, Mendez told me, “the Gospel of John, and the letters of 1 2, and 3 John are a chain of ancient literary forgeries.” Forgeries like this were, as Bart Ehrman showed in his Forgery and Counterforgery, very common among early Christians. Two second-century early Christian texts—the Gospel of Thomas and Gospel of Peter—claim to have been written by disciples of Jesus but were actually written by others.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Ken Olson
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Post by Ken Olson » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:18 am

Hugo Mendez, "Did the Johannine Community Exist?", JSNT 42.3 2020:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/1 ... 4X19890490

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Post by Joseph D. L. » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:08 am

This really calls into question the legitimacy of these academics. Why is one thing a "forgery", another "pseudepigraphal" and still another "spurious"? These people labour under the delusion that there is such a thing as authentic Gospel, authentic Christianity, and authentic Jesus. That is why they will never move beyond ludicrous ideas like Q, M, L, Markan priority, and a Jesus during Tiberius. It's all bs.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Post by Joseph D. L. » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:18 am

I suspect this hostility towards John and the Johannine Community is because it disproves their ideas about Mark which they are desperate to make work.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:23 am

The implication is clearly again - Irenaeus is a liar.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

perseusomega9
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Post by perseusomega9 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:25 am

Think we can time the letters to Trobisch's First Edition yet?

Charles Wilson
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Post by Charles Wilson » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:38 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:23 am
The implication is clearly again - Irenaeus is a liar.
People can be so disappointing...

Bernard Muller
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Post by Bernard Muller » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:18 pm

The gospel and the 3 epistles attributed to John are obviously not from either John the fisherman or John the elder (who I take as the author of Revelation). Very few on this board would think otherwise.
For the ones interested, I made a long study on the 4th gospel, with comments on the author (who is also the one I deducted wrote 1 John).
I wrote about that at http://historical-jesus.info/jnintro.html
You can directly go where I discussed authorship here: http://historical-jesus.info/jnorig.html#author
I also touched up on the Johannine community's issue in the authorship passage.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Post by Joseph D. L. » Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:55 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:23 am
The implication is clearly again - Irenaeus is a liar.
I'm just fed up with these academics treating Christianity as if it's anything but a scam.

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Peter Kirby
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Post by Peter Kirby » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:24 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:55 pm
I'm just fed up with these academics treating Christianity as if it's anything but a scam.
Maybe someone should define the terms and present the case. It would at least be interesting to read.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown

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