Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Bernard Muller
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Joseph D. L.
Irenaeus states that these heretics used the Gospels of Matthew, Luke and John, and gives specific groups in the process. He does not do the same for Mark. Why??????
Finally you employ the word USED (rather than gave and ascribed).
What about Mark? Matthew (which incorporates 90% of Mark) had superseded Mark in the first part of the 2nd century. That would explain why Mark was not used by heretics, who used Matthew instead.
What do you have to offer that these men above don't?
These scholars & pseudo-scholars or plain writers offer many divergent views, all of them rather far-fetched and ill-evidenced.
What I have to offer is very different, well evidenced, coherent, ...
Read comments from my readers here: http://historical-jesus.info/50.html
Here is one of them:
"... I feel I have wasted much time and energy piecing ideas together from my own readings, when you have done such a thorough job already!
... these [3-4] years have given me an appreciation of the work you must have put in, both in painstakingly reading, re-reading and comparing, as well as scrupulously arranging your material into coherent topics and valid conclusions.
So this sums up my second amazement, which is my real joy at seeing the elegant, lucid and compelling arguments you make - 'arguments' is almost the wrong word: since you rely so much on primary sources to tell the story, your own interpretations are almost unnecessary. The texts, when arranged and compared as you do, reveal their secrets quite readily for those with eyes to see. I ... had cause to laugh out loud in pleasure at the novel (to me anyway) but straightforward and undeniable conclusions that your patient research has yielded.
And for this, I thank you.
... I shall sign off there. Once again, let me register my deep admiration and appreciation for your wonderful work, which is at the same time so unlike any of the other Jesus resources available on the web, and so reassuringly transparent despite the obvious weight of reading and careful scholarship behind it."
On your books, you forgot to mention a scholar & professor called Dennis MacDonald who "proposes a theory wherein the earliest books of the New Testament were responses to the Homeric Epics, including the Gospel of Mark and the Acts of the Apostles." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_MacDonald
And what about Doherty, Carrier, Price and Brodie and Acharya?
And dozen other mythicists: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C ... proponents
Because I am familiar with the Daniel prophecy and how it has been applied and fudged to get these results. I don't need your imput
What you think: I am right, so anyone who disagrees with me is wrong & unworthy for me to read his writing.
BTW, for the ones interested, I made a complete study on Daniel: http://historical-jesus.info/daniel.html
Major fail right there. Tacitus? Suetonius? Are you going to next say fucking Josephus??? Paul is a made up figure. You are arguing in circles now.
I rejected the TF (Ant., Book XVIII). I explained my reasons here: http://historical-jesus.info/appe.html
whatever the nature of their creed
(from Pliny the Younger).
That's a general statement covering any creed which does not accept the gods worshiped by the Romans.
They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food.
Pliny tells Trajan about some specifics he heard as told by former Christians in that city. That does not mean that Pliny was ignorant of Christianity before that.
Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.
Pliny wanted to know anything new about the Christianity as practiced then in that city. The info he got earlier was from those who had quit Christian faith years ago.
There's pottery going as far back as the first century bc of a Christian/Chrestian sect. What's you point?
The point I was making is that Pliny indicated there were Christians in the city well into the 1st century. "they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years."
No, what does matter is when it was written and why it was written, neither of which helps your case.
1 Clement helps my case but you don't want to know about it by reading what I wrote about it.
But you think it's impossible for Mark to have done the same?
If Mark was written in 70-71 (as I determined), the author had no need to depend on Josephus for information about the fall of Jerusalem. Just fresh verbal accounts of the events in Judea were enough.
What's your point? Either Josephus lifted from Mark or Mark lifted from Josephus.
Neither of these options. I already made it clear. Josephus was an eyewitness of the events of 70 about Jerusalem. He certainly did not need to take his clues from Mark.
You are creating a strawman. I did not and do not and have not said that Revelation was written because of the Kitos and bar Kochba revolts.
I never said that.
What I did say and do say is that certain portions are witnesses to these events. I think that is clear.
You need a lot of biased imagination to come to that conclusion.

Cordially, Bernard
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Bernard Muller
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Joseph D. L.,
Did you see that? Enough of Jerusalem was left in order for the Roman army to establish a garrison, as opposed to "There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down." That wasn't until Hadrian made Aelia Capitolina and turned Jerusalem into a Roman city.
What the Romans did not destroy was three isolated towers and a part of the city wall to the West. All the rest, including the temple was fully destroyed.
Even if "Mark" knew about these few exceptions, he was not prone to go into historical details.

Furthermore, when "Mark" has Jesus declaring:“Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.", it is about great building (such as the temple), not wall or towers.

Cordially, Bernard
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:31 am Yes, that is true. And it would help explain differences in the approach if there were not such obvious precedents for Revelation 14.14-20 in the prophetic literature. My point is that there is no single detail or image which has to derive from Gittin 57 instead of that literature. This is not, so far, just an opinion; it is a basic observation.
Take the Abomination that causes desolation in Mark 13 and Matthew 24. The prophecy is taken from Daniel. So Daniel will have priority here.

The major interpretation for the prophecy in Daniel is that of a historic event, the setting up of an alter to Zeus by Antiochus IV Epiphinies, while yet another is that of Manasseh setting up a brazen image in the Temple. Either way, there is a historic event in mind to the Daniel author.

Now how is this applied to Mark and Matthew? Both reiterate the Daniel prophecy. Is there a historic event in their mind that it is being interpreted prophetically? If yes then the usage of Daniel is appropriate. If no then the usage of Daniel is redundant. And there are people who do see their usage as relating to a historic event, whether it be Caligula or Titus setting up images to themselves in Jerusalem, or Hadrian setting up statues of Trajan / an alter to Zeus in Aelia Capitolina.

My point here is that the imagery used is not important. What is important is figuring out what the author had in mind. Is this presuming that they had anything in mind? Yes. But another point is that I am hardly the first to apply such historical typology onto these texts.

Also, as an aside, I don't know if you're meaning with "there is no single detail or image which has to derive from Gittin 57 instead of that literature" is that I think Rev 14:14-20 as deriving from Gittin 57. That is not my position. My position is that both are independent of each other, and are using common expressions to describe the same event. If that's not your meaning then just ignore this.
There is death in all three (sets of) texts. Death does not set Gittin 57 apart from the prophetic literature as a possible connection. The sickle, however, as a specific image for death is something that Revelation 14.14-20 shares with the prophetic precedents over and against Gittin 57. That is what I am looking for in reverse: something in Gittin 57 which better explains one of the details in Revelation 14.14-20 than the prophetic passages.
One thing I will point out is that the the third set of texts, the prophetic literature/common source, are taken from a myriad of sources. [I'm going to copy/paste your old post here for convenience]:

Isaiah 18.4-6: 4 For thus the Lord has told me, “I will look from My dwelling place quietly like dazzling heat in the sunshine, like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.” 5 For before the harvest, as soon as the bud blossoms and the flower becomes a ripening grape, then He will cut off the sprigs with pruning knives and remove and cut away the spreading branches. 6 They will be left together for mountain birds of prey, and for the beasts of the earth; and the birds of prey will spend the summer feeding on them, and all the beasts of the earth will spend harvest time on them.

Isaiah 63.1-6: 1 Who is this who comes from Edom, with garments of glowing colors from Bozrah, this One who is majestic in His apparel, marching in the greatness of His strength? "It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save." 2 Why is Your apparel red and Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press? 3 "I have trodden the wine trough alone, and from the peoples there was no man with Me. I also trod them in My anger and trampled them in My wrath; and their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments, and I stained all My raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance was in My heart, and My year of redemption has come. 5 I looked, and there was no one to help, and I was astonished and there was no one to uphold; so My own arm brought salvation to Me, and My wrath upheld Me. 6 I trod down the peoples in My anger and made them drunk in My wrath, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."

Joel 3.11-16 (4:13 OG): 11 Hasten and come, all you surrounding nations, and gather yourselves there. Bring down, Yahweh, Your mighty ones. 12 Let the nations be aroused and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations. 13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, tread, for the wine press is full; the vats overflow, for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of Yahweh is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and moon grow dark and the stars lose their brightness. 16 Yahweh roars from Zion and utters His voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth tremble. But Yahweh is a refuge for His people and a stronghold to the sons of Israel.

2 Maccabees 12.16: 16 And took the city by the will of God, and made unspeakable slaughters, insomuch that a lake two furlongs broad near adjoining thereunto, being filled full, was seen running with blood.

1 Enoch 100.1-3: 1 And in those days in one place the fathers together with their sons shall be smitten, and brothers one with another shall fall in death till the streams flow with their blood. 2 For a man shall not withhold his hand from slaying his sons and his sons' sons, and the sinner shall not withhold his hand from his honored brother: from dawn till sunset they shall slay one another. 3 And the horse shall walk up to the breast in the blood of sinners, and the chariot shall be submerged to its height.

4 Ezra 15.35-36: 35 They shall dash against one another and shall pour out a heavy tempest upon the earth, and their own tempest; and there shall be blood from the sword as high as a horse's belly 36 and a man's thigh and a camel's hock.


Do you see that? The parallel verses are found in up to, but not limited to, six different texts .

Now look at the comparative Revelation 14:14-20 and Gittin 57

Talmud Gittin, 57 A-BRev 14:14-20
His head was brought to Hadrian, who asked: “Who killed him?” A Cuthite came forward and said: “I did.” Hadrian told him: “Go and bring his body.” He went and brought it, and they found a snake curled around his neck. Hadrian declared: “Had his G‑d not killed him, who would have been able to do so?” Eighty thousand Romans entered Betar and slaughtered the men, women and children until blood flowed from the doorways and sewers. Horses sank up until their nostrils, and the rivers of blood lifted up rocks weighing forty se’ah [approximately 700 lb.], and flowed into the sea, where its stain was noticeable for a distance of four mil [approximately 2.5 miles]. Hadrian had a large vineyard, eighteen mil [approximately 11.5 miles] by eighteen mil—the distance between Tiberias and Tzippori—and he surrounded it with a wall made from the bodies of those slain in Betar. He also ordered that they not be brought to burial. The sages taught: for seven years the gentiles harvested their vineyards without having to fertilize them, because of the blood of Israel. Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped. Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia.

The similar descriptions are common in both the historic (Gittin 57) and the prophetic (Revelation 14) texts. Why is that? Is it because these were just common expressions for similar events?

But there is one thing that sets the two above apart from the common source texts. Did you notice the one peculiarity that Revelation 14:14-20 and Giitin 57 had in common? It's a small detail but I think it speaks volumes.

Eighty thousand Romans entered Betar and slaughtered the men, women and children until blood flowed from the doorways and sewers. Horses sank up until their nostrils, and the rivers of blood lifted up rocks weighing forty se’ah [approximately 700 lb.], and flowed into the sea, where its stain was noticeable for a distance of four mil [approximately 2.5 miles]. Hadrian had a large vineyard, eighteen mil [approximately 11.5 miles] by eighteen mil—the distance between Tiberias and Tzippori


And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia

Both Revelaton 14:14-20 and Gittin 57 make mention of the distance the blood flowed. That is only present in one of the common source texts (2 Maccabees 12.16).

So in total, there is a 8/8 match with the three sets of texts. But in this small detail, there is only a 3/8 match.

That narrows down how much the author of Revelation 14:14-20 was looking to written sources. and even the 2 Maccabees 12.16 parallel is stretching it, as Revelation 14:14-20 and Gittin 57 both express the length and height the same. (" blood flowed from the doorways and sewers. Horses sank up until their nostrils"; "blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia."), while 2 Maccabees uses a variation ("a lake two furlongs broad near adjoining thereunto, being filled full, was seen running with blood.")

So even when comparing the all eight texts, the one with the most conspicuous a parallels is Revelation 14:14-20, and Gittin 57.
Not exactly true. Gittin 57 has blood up to a horse's nostrils; Revelation 14.14-20 has blood up to a horse's bridle; 1 Enoch 100.1-3 has blood up to a horse's breast; and 4 Ezra 15.35-36 has blood up to a horse's belly. The horse is common to all of these, as is the measurement of blood somewhere upon its height, but there is nothing, again, specific both to Gittin 57 and to Revelation 14.14-20.
A bridle goes around the horse's nostrils.

Image
The use of a winepress/vineyard in relation to death is present as well.
Gittin 57 has a vineyard as a burial site. The prophets and Revelation 14.14-20 both have a winepress as a specific sign of divine judgment. Once again, the prophets and Revelation 14.14-20 are closer to each other than either is to Gittin 57.
Gittin 57 is not a prophetic text, however.
That is fine, but my findings so far are basically mathematical. Gittin 57 never once comes off as closer to Revelation 14.14-20 than the prophetic literature. This creates a situation in which the prophetic literature serves as a middle term between Gittin 57 and Revelation 14.14-20, rendering any direct connection between the latter two completely superfluous.
I actually broke the math down. there is an eight and eight parallel between the three sets of texts, but only a three and eight parallel on one specific detail, and only a two and eight parallel on how this detail is used. Revelation 14:14-20 and Gittin 57 are closer with that parallel than than the common sources.
You are right about that. It is not a coincidence: if the prophetic literature is really the middle term,then both Gittin 57 and Revelation 14.14-20 drew upon the prophetic literature; everything shared by the two texts is found therein. The event itself probably never happened. Gittin 57 invented it (or embellished it) against Hadrian and the Romans on the basis of the prophetic literature, while Revelation 14.14-20 lifted the imagery more directly from the same prophetic literature. Once those prophets are taken into account for both passages, nothing remains between them to be explained.
My position is that the description was a common description of the bar Kochba revolt and how Jews viewed Hadrian.
It is fine if you disagree; but I am not certain what you would be disagreeing with. It is standard, when connecting two texts or traditions, to find something shared by them that cannot be explained by other, more obvious texts or traditions, and I cannot find any such thing between Gittin 57 and Revelation 14.14-20.
Perhaps it is because I am comparing this in conjunction with my interpretations of other various descriptions found in Revelation that I link to Kitos and bar Kochba. I will admit to that. So any perceived differences would be lessened and the parallels strengthened to make my argument stronger. I don't deny that I am above such things, being a human prone to mistakes.

But the one commonality between Revelation 14:14-20 and Gittin 57 is too conspicuous for me.
The only possible correspondences between Gittin 57 and Revelation 14.14-20 lacking in the prophetic passages are tiny and probably coincidental. For example, the bridle of a horse is of closer height to the nostrils of a horse than to its breast or belly; but it is still not the same measurement. This is not enough for me. If it is enough for you, so be it.
It's not just the horses bridle/nostril, but also the distance the blood flowed, which is only expressed in three texts. Your chart makes it appear that this is present in all six that you compared, when it is only found in one.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

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Joseph D. L. wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:27 pm
... Gittin 57 has blood up to a horse's nostrils; Revelation 14.14-20 has blood up to a horse's bridle; 1 Enoch 100.1-3 has blood up to a horse's breast; and 4 Ezra 15.35-36 has blood up to a horse's belly. The horse is common to all of these, as is the measurement of blood somewhere upon its height, but there is nothing, again, specific both to Gittin 57 and to Revelation 14.14-20.
I dunno if this has any bearing on any points being made, but re the "horse is common to all of these, as is the measurement of blood somewhere upon its height", I'd say bridle, breast, and belly are measurements of distance back from a horse's nostrils.

A bridle goes around the horse's nostrils.
[fwiw, A bridle includes a headstall that goes around the head, and a bit that goes across towards the back of the mouth of a horse (and the attachment of the reins to the left side of the bit, as depicted in the picture).]

Blood can come from the nostrils, the bit cutting the lips or gums, or even from the lungs via the nostrils or mouth, usually during intense activity.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Post by Joseph D. L. »


... the vats overflow, for their wickedness is great

I didn't even notice this. My mind was elsewhere. lol

I will say that this is more a parallel with the horse measurement. Overflowing, lake filling up, horse's bridle/breast, are vertical expressions.

Am I being needlessly pedantic?

Yes!!!
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

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Joseph D. L. wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:27 pmWe'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Well, maybe. You are actually making a much better case than I had given you credit for. What I do not understand, however, is this bit:
So in total, there is a 8/8 match with the three sets of texts. But in this small detail, there is only a 3/8 match.
What is the mathematical utility in counting up the sheer number of source texts with which a detail matches? I do not get it. All it takes is one precedent text to make a match; adding more merely makes it a more popular motif to match up with, not inherently more of a match. Right?
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Post by Joseph D. L. »

MrMacSon wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:11 pm

I dunno if this has any bearing on any points being made, but re the "horse is common to all of these, as is the measurement of blood somewhere upon its height", I'd say bridle, breast, and belly are measurements of distance back from a horse's nostrils.
Not sure if I follow. The horse measurement, at least how I'm seeing it my mind, is that of vertical height. Revelation 14:14-20, Gittin 57 and 2 Maccabees 12:16 makes a note of both height and length/distance.

A bridle goes around the horse's nostrils.
[fwiw, A bridle includes a headstall that goes around the head, and a bit that goes across towards the back of the mouth of a horse (and the attachment of the reins to the left side of the bit, as depicted in the picture).]

Blood can come from the nostrils, the bit cutting the lips or gums, or even from the lungs via the nostrils or mouth, usually during intense activity.
I guess you're right. I don't know much about horse care and equipment. (What a weird turn this thread has made. lol)

But there is, at least, a general height being made between the horse's bridle and nostrils, and a horse's breast and belly.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:17 pm
So in total, there is a 8/8 match with the three sets of texts. But in this small detail, there is only a 3/8 match.
What is the mathematical utility in counting up the sheer number of source texts with which a detail matches? I do not get it. All it takes is one precedent text to make a match; adding more merely makes it a more popular motif to match up with, not inherently more of a match. Right?
I'm counting each source text as a separate unit in this, plus Revelation and Gittin . Then cutting it down to three, because Revelation, Gittin, and 2 Macabbees have parallel unique to them (although I should have added Joel, so that brings it up to four texts with parallel expressions.) The less parallels with the common source material (the six passages you brought up) is the less chances the author of Revelation 14:14-20 is utilizing them directly.

My overall point is that Revelation 14:14-20 was not relying on written source texts and was just using common day expressions.

I know. I've confused myself too.

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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

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Joseph D. L. wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:20 pm Not sure if I follow. The horse measurement, at least how I'm seeing it my mind, is that of vertical height. Revelation 14:14-20, Gittin 57 and 2 Maccabees 12:16 makes a note of both height and length/distance.
< . . snip . . >
But there is, at least, a general height being made between the horse's bridle and nostrils, and a horse's breast and belly.
Yes, up to = height. But bridle implies slightly higher than nostrils, and breast and belly may be essentially the same (though belly may be higher).

Joseph D. L. wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:27 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:31 amThe only possible correspondences between Gittin 57 and Revelation 14.14-20 lacking in the prophetic passages are tiny and probably coincidental. For example, the bridle of a horse is of closer height to the nostrils of a horse than to its breast or belly; but it is still not the same measurement. This is not enough for me. If it is enough for you, so be it.
It's not just the horses bridle/nostril, but also the distance the blood flowed, which is only expressed in three texts ...

These heights (or anatomic distances) may only be relevant if one or more author/s is/are trying to [rhetorically] out-do previous authors (or if there were to be some other rhetorical devices at play)


I don't think I have anything else to add (and of course may not have added anything, anyway).
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Re: Gospel of John a Forgery, Johannine Communities Never Existed

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Joseph D. L. wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:36 pmThe less parallels with the common source material (the six passages you brought up) is the less chances the author of Revelation 14:14-20 is utilizing them directly.
This is the part that I disagree with on the merits. Like I said, all it takes is one. The source materials are not supposed to form some unified textbook from which the author slavishly drew; I mean only that they form part of a broad prophetic vocabulary or imagery set from which all apocalypticists drew.

Furthermore, there are demonstrable uses of earlier material by later material in which only one passage is alluded to, and there are highly dubious uses of earlier material by later material in which multiple passages are potentially alluded to. These two factors: (A) the likelihood of influence and (B) how many sources fed into that influence, are necessarily completely independent. To conflate them produces nothing of use. (By which I mean that, potentially, a detail which scored only 2/8 on your method could easily be the most secure connection, while one scoring 6/8 could actually comprise a less probable connection.)
My overall point is that Revelation 14:14-20 was not relying on written source texts and was just using common day expressions.
That is actually part of my point, as well. Did the author get the winepress from Joel or from Isaiah, for example? In the end it does not really matter, since the whole body of prophetic imagery is the thing.

All of that said, however, like I mentioned, your overall case is better than I had considered. I will let it rest for now and give it more thought.
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