Yes, because that is one of the primary meanings of the word. But its meaning shifted over time, as I (and many others) have shown elsewhere.Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:55 pmto Ben,But you translated yourself λογίων by "oracles". And everywhere I looked, λογίων is always translated by "oracles"."Oracle" is probably a misleading translation for logion in a case like this for many people; I doubt you are alone in that.
But that logia can consist of "words and deeds" is beyond dispute; the term is used both of sayings and of narrated portions of the Hebrew scriptures, for example. It is not only what God (for example) said; it is also what God did
Those are the same word: logia is the English transliteration of λόγια, and λογίων is the genitive plural of λόγια.And if the author wanted to mean logia, why did he not use that word instead of λογίων?
All of them. Logia is just the direct transliteration of λόγια, letter for letter. The definition of logia is: whatever λόγια means.Do you know of any examples in ancient Greek writings where λογίων obviously mean logia instead of just "oracles"?
Some scholars mistakenly took the use of the term logia in Papias to mean a sayings gospel like Q, but that mistake has since been rectified, even among diehard Q scholars, who find their justification for that document elsewhere. At any rate, while that mistake was still in full force, the term logion (the singular of logia) was generally applied only to sayings by Jesus such as those we find in Thomas. But that is not a defensible restriction.
The word logion (the singular of logia) comes from the same root word as logos, "word" or "saying." That is its root meaning.PS: correction: According to one of Secret Alias post, λογίων is translated by "sayings".
That does not seem to be a valid translation for me. And that does not include the deeds which Papias declared to be out of order also.
An analogy to how that term came to be used over time may be found in the English expression, the "word of God." Well, originally that phrase meant, quite literally, words which God spoke (as on Mount Sinai). But eventually all of the scriptures came to be regarded as having originated from God, so the entire Bible is now the "word of God." But the Bible contains both words and deeds, both of God and of others. "God caused it to rain" (a deed) is just as much the "word of God," in the religious sense, as "God said to Moses, 'Do not commit adultery'" (a word).
Papias (or his Elder John) appears to be using the term logia much as religious people today use the term "word of God." Matthew wrote down the logia, authoritative statements about the Lord Jesus, in order (and in Hebrew), while Mark, depending either upon anecdotal teaching or teaching "to the needs" from Peter, wrote down the logia, authoritative statements about the Lord Jesus (both his words and his deeds), out of order.
ETA: Here is what I hope will be a handy reference for this apparently troublesome word:
English preserves the various cases (nominative, genitive, dative, accusative) only in its pronouns (he, his, him; she, her, her), not in its nouns (except that we still retain the difference between singular and plural); therefore, in English it is customary to use the nominative of Greek or Latin nouns (logion or logia, not logiou or logiwn).
Also, it should be noted that, while I have related each of the above cases to its standing in the grammar of a sentence (subject, direct or indirect object, possessive), each case is also used for a lot of other purposes, too many to list here. (That is what grammar books are for. I bet Smyth lists 15 or 20 distinct uses for the dative alone.)