What Are the Implications that Peter Taught in 'Anecdotes'?

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Secret Alias
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Re: What Are the Implications that Peter Taught in 'Anecdotes'?

Post by Secret Alias »

Clearly then if the 'best' evidence suggested that Peter sat on street corners and private groups preserving 'anecdotes' of what Jesus said and did, this is not a great means of getting historical evidence. The gospel of Mark is understood to be a collection of anecdotes. A patchwork of anecdotal episodes. Bauckham again:
Education would simply heighten self-conscious reflection on the forms of anecdote in common use and teach people effective use of anecdotes in persuasion and argumentation.50 Greek education taught people how to use such anecdotes in argumentative rhetoric intended to persuade.Theon prescribed eight exercises for students to do with chreiai, including memorizing chreiai, grammatical exercises, commenting on, confirming and refuting, all with a view to the use of chreiai in speeches aimed at persuading people.51 In order to relate the deeds and sayings of Jesus in the form of short anecdotes Peter certainly did not need to have had such rhetorical training. We simply do not know how Peter would have used such anecdotes in his preaching,if Papias is correct in implying that he did. In spite of the assumption of the form critics that Gospel traditions functioned in a homiletic context in which their message was applied, Peter may in fact, for all we know, simply have rehearsed the traditions. Certainly, within the Gospel of Mark the context of the traditions is a narrative, not a speech. The Gospel doubtless aims to persuade, but only in the way that a narrative can do, quite differently from the way a speech can. In my view it is therefore a mistake to apply the exercises with chreiai prescribed by the grammarians to analysis of chreiai in the Gospels.52 There is no reason why Peter could not have given many of the chreiai in Mark their basic forms in his oral rehearsing of the words and deeds of Jesus.
Hmmm. So what Bauckham is arguing is that we shouldn't allow the medium - i.e. the late grammarians who transmit the information about chreiai - to influence how we understand Papias's statement about Peter's use of chreiai. The fact that they were teachers using chreiai to educate students does not mean that Peter should be conceived as an ancient grammarian.

Fair enough. But even if we go along with Bauckham and imagine that Peter sat on a street corner teaching anecdotes about a miraculous figure who recently appeared in Judea there are problems. The first is that Papias's model doesn't make a lot of sense. Anecdotes are told by storytellers. Papias is claiming that Peter was the storyteller and Mark was simply his editor. Mark assembled the anecdotes into a particular form. I am not sure that a man standing on a corner telling anecdotes is a very convincing way of spreading a new religion. Similarly the Preaching of Peter, the Pseudo-Clementines - in fact all of our known source material - does not portray Peter in this way. He is not a man standing on a street corner telling anecdotes.

Now of course it may be argued that these other documents were inaccurate and Papias was accurate. But surely these sources would have known or been familiar with Papias's claims. Look at Clement. Clement knows Papias's claims but does not agree with them either. Whether or not you accept to Theodore as authentic or not there seems to be a wide disagreement over how Peter taught. If we accept Watson's reading of Papias, Papias acknowledges Markan priority. Papias is chiefly concerned with the sayings (logion) of the Lord. Jesus is the Logos who utters logion. Matthew is the best witness to the logion of the Lord but nevertheless Papias has to deal with Mark which in some way is acknowledged to have been an earlier witness. In fact if Papias is taken at face value:

1. Peter teaches with anecdotes
2. Mark arranges the anecdotes incorrectly
3. Matthew corrected Mark's arrangement

Assuming Mark and Matthew are meant to be our canonical texts the passing on of anecdotes from Peter to Mark still shape Matthew as we currently understand. The sayings (logion) are only understood to be a separate matter by Papias. The logion are roughly the equivalent of stoicheia. The anecdotes are bigger building blocks. Papias does his battle with Mark on the level of logion because he can't get around the the fact that Mark had a seminal role in the establishment of the gospel narrative form.
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Re: What Are the Implications that Peter Taught in 'Anecdotes'?

Post by Secret Alias »

It would be undeniable that the gospel is a collection of anecdotes which contain certain 'sayings' of Jesus.
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Bernard Muller
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Re: What Are the Implications that Peter Taught in 'Anecdotes'?

Post by Bernard Muller »

Also, the whole logic of the passage stands with the obvious translation. Mark did not write in order. Why not? Papias says it was because he listened to Peter's teaching and not to the Lord himself. But so what? Well, Peter was teaching to the needs (πρὸς τὰς χρείας) of his audience, not making an orderly arrangement (οὐχ... σύνταξιν). This is why Mark did not err (οὐδὲν ἥμαρτεν) in writing as he did, out of order.
My reason why Mark would be accused of that (probably by members of Papias' Christian community to which he felt compelled to offer an explanation) is because it did not follow the order of Luke. The most obvious difference of order between Mark & Luke:
The visit to Nazareth happened early in Jesus' public life in Luke; in Mark it is located in time somewhere in the middle of that ministry.
Why Luke as the reference? because it is the only gospel which states it is in order (Lk 1:3).
Why not john as the reference? because John is most different to the Synoptics, including Mark.
Why not Matthew? because that gospel follows the same order as in Mark.

This is what I think, which I already stated on this board long ago.

I also think that Peter did not "teach" with anecdotes (involving Jesus), but rather offered his testimony with anecdotes. However Peter must have not given the location in places & time and other details."Mark" filled up these holes to his convenience, making an anecdote look like a miracle such as:
- The fig tree withering after only one day after the cursing, and that in Galilee at the proper season (weeks after the cursing) and not in Judea in the wrong season
- the man with the skin disease being cured instantly by Jesus (but probably weeks after through natural healing).
About details, Mark added many extraordinary items to Peter's anecdotes.
See http://historical-jesus.info/88.html and http://historical-jesus.info/89.html

All of that in order to "demonstrate" Jesus was the Son of God, Christ, etc

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: What Are the Implications that Peter Taught in 'Anecdotes'?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Bernard Muller wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:04 amWhy not john as the reference? because John is most different to the Synoptics, including Mark.
Especially with regard to order.
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Re: What Are the Implications that Peter Taught in 'Anecdotes'?

Post by Secret Alias »

But I am not sure whether we understand the implications of Papias's statement.

1. if Peter taught WITH anecdotes
2. and those anecdotes are the individual pericopes which make up the gospel of Mark

Matthew's arrangement or re-arrangement of those same pericopes necessarily means that Peter was Matthew's ultimate source (by means of Mark). This necessarily means that the logia can't be identical with the gospel of Matthew.

But more significantly.

3. How does Matthew's rearrangement of the order of the pericopes have any authority? If we are talking about canonical Matthew and canonical Mark there is very little difference in order to begin with. But Peter is the ultimate source of everything according to Papias's model.

Does Papias really want us to believe that (a) Mark sat writing down Peter's teachings which to a large part were anecdotal and that (b) Matthew had access to Mark's gospel but knew from other sources that Mark's arrangement was incorrect or worse yet (c) that Matthew himself was there as a disciple and knew from firsthand experience that Mark's ordering of the anecdotes of Peter was wrong and correct them himself? If these are our canonical texts that Papias is referencing all that Matthew seems to do is add the Sermon on the Mount and other things. But Mark's order isn't the issue. Papias also says that Mark didn't leave anything out or didn't want to leave anything out. Are we to surmise from that - if our canonical gospels are what Papias is discussing - that Peter didn't ever mention the Beatitudes? Seems rather incredible given that Marcion knew this material.

Papias's model would hardly convince anyone. Again:

i. There is Peter preaching presumable in Rome.
ii Mark comes along assembles a hypomnema of anecdotes that Peter said after remaining with him for a while
iii Mark doesn't leave anything out but supposedly puts the anecdotes in the wrong order
iv Matthew who was a disciple of Jesus adds the Beatitudes and rearranges the order of Mark's gospel

But if the gospel is just a collection of anecdotes and Matthew was there as a witness to the ministry of Jesus why not just write his own narrative using a different technique? Why make a clone of Mark plus a few new things? I don't know if you've ever been around someone telling anecdotes but if they tell an anecdote when an eyewitness to the same is present, the eyewitness inevitably retells the story in a different way. This is especially true if someone gets the story in the 'wrong order.' They will say something like, "No it was like this" and then proceed to tell the same story in a different way and in a different perspective. I don't believe Papias.
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Re: What Are the Implications that Peter Taught in 'Anecdotes'?

Post by Secret Alias »

It had to be Mark who created the anecdotes. Even if Peter taught with anecdotes it is hard to believe that Mark didn't give his own spin on the material. But Mark's anecdotes are often woven into chiastic structures. Hard to believe Mark could have stayed faithful to what Papias claims were anecdotes which were spoken by Peter before 60 CE. Mark wrote c. 70 CE. The events in question were two generations earlier. Yes Mark could have written down notes from his time with Peter. But the shaping of the material into the anecdotes which appear in Mark were largely the artistic achievement of Mark.

So why would Papias create this elaborate nonsense he does? He is trying to get around Markan authority. If you compare what Clement says. Even without the Letter to Theodore Clement - like the heretics - understands that there are mystical teachings within the pericopes, within the anecdotes and the sayings of Jesus. If this extends to gematria of course this could only have been established by Mark. But Clement explicitly notes also that the stories are inevitably allegorical. Could Peter really have drafted allegorical anecdotes on the street corners of the Empire? Of course not. This means that Mark had a much larger role in shaping the anecdotes than Papias let's on or wants to admit. Why? Because he is trying to argument that Matthew is better than Mark.
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Re: What Are the Implications that Peter Taught in 'Anecdotes'?

Post by Secret Alias »

Bacon writes:
Peter was dead, when Mark, unable to supply the lack from his own experience, had put together such anecdotes as he remembered, "not, however, in order." The fact that even Luke, who aspires to the title and credit of a real historian and chronographer, though with not quite the success Sir William Ramsay imputes to him, can make so slight improvement upon Mark, adding scarcely anything of historical value to the story, never once coinciding with Matthew in his departures from its order, and only increasing the confusion where he attempts to mend it, is decisive proof, if proof were any longer needed that Mark's confessedly imperfect " order " had already become the only available one. There is no more extraordinary fact in the whole domain of gospel criticism than this complete dominance of the Marcan outline.https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&h ... perfect%22
But Papias says nothing about Mark writing when Peter was dead. Now that we know about Secret Mark doesn't that change the fomulation?
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Re: What Are the Implications that Peter Taught in 'Anecdotes'?

Post by Joseph D. L. »

I'm curious if χρεία is related to Leucius, the writer of many apocryphal works.
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Re: What Are the Implications that Peter Taught in 'Anecdotes'?

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Not likely.
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Re: What Are the Implications that Peter Taught in 'Anecdotes'?

Post by Joseph D. L. »


For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied him, but later, as I said, Peter, who used to give his teachings in the form of chreiai, but had no intention of providing an ordered arrangement of the logia of the Lord.

This is what the wiki says about χρεία:
A chreia was a brief, useful (χρεία means "use") anecdote about a particular character.
Leucius, a follower of John (according to Epiphanius), was the writer of novels about individual Apostles.

Just a thought as to where the idea came from.
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