Is there a Relationship Between Papias's Discussion of Mark's Gospel and the First Book of Against Heresies?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Is there a Relationship Between Papias's Discussion of Mark's Gospel and the First Book of Against Heresies?

Post by Secret Alias »

Irenaeus 1.5.4b
Hence the devil, whom they also call Cosmocrator (the ruler of the world), and the demons, and the angels, and every wicked spiritual being that exists, found the source Of their existence. They represent the Demiurge as being the son of that mother of theirs (Achamoth), and Cosmocrator as the creature of the Demiurge. Cosmocrator has knowledge of what is above himself, because he is a spirit of wickedness; but the Demiurge is ignorant of such things, inasmuch as he is merely animal.
Tertullian Av 22
Their slanders against the devil are more endurable, especially because his scummy origin justifies them. They consider him to have arisen from the evil part of her grief; they as sign the origin of angels, demons, and all evil spirits to the same source. Nevertheless, they affirm that he is the creation of the Demiurge. They call him World-holder (Munditenentem), and they maintain that he is more aware of the higher world, since he is spirit-like in nature, than is the Demiurge, who is soul-like. He whom all heresies serve deserves preference from them!
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Is there a Relationship Between Papias's Discussion of Mark's Gospel and the First Book of Against Heresies?

Post by Secret Alias »

Irenaeus 1.5.4c
Their mother dwells in that place which is above the heavens, that is, in the intermediate abode; the Demiurge in the heavenly place, that is, in the hebdomad; but the Cosmocrator in this our world. The corporeal elements of the world, again, sprang, as we before remarked, from bewilderment and perplexity, as from a more ignoble source. Thus the earth arose from her state of stupor; water from the agitation caused by her fear; air from the consolidation of her grief; while fire, producing death and corruption, was inherent in all these elements, even as they teach that ignorance also lay concealed in these three passions.
Tertullian AV 23
To resume, they station the citadels of the various powers within the following boundaries: in the height of heights the thirty-fold Pleroma rules with Horos defining the outer limit. Lower down, Achamoth resides in the middle space, stepping on her son, since the Demiurge is below in his seventh heaven. It is certainly fitting that the devil is with us in this world which has been conglomerated together from the same elements, i.e., from Sophia's profitable troubles, as I related above. "Profitable," I say, because he would have had no air, that receptacle of our exhaled breath, that soft covering of all bodies, that determiner of all colors, that engine moving the seasons, if Sophia's sadness had not cultivated it, just as her fear cultivated soul-like bodies and her conversion cultivated the Demiurge himself. In all these elements and bodies fire was kindled--now since the Valentinians have not yet revealed the feeling in Sophia which was the origin of this fire, I will conjecture for the present that it was struck up during her feverish delirium. You can be quite sure she was feverish amid such troubles.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Is there a Relationship Between Papias's Discussion of Mark's Gospel and the First Book of Against Heresies?

Post by Secret Alias »

Irenaeus 1.5.5
5. Having thus formed the world, he (the Demiurge) also created the earthy [part of] man, not taking him from this dry earth, but from an invisible substance consisting of fusible and fluid matter, and then afterwards, as they define the process, breathed into him the animal part of his nature. It was this latter which was created after his image and likeness. The material part, indeed, was very near to. God, so far as the image went, but not of the same substance with him. The animal, on the Other hand, was so in respect to likeness; and hence his substance was called the spirit of life, because it took its rise from a spiritual outflowing. After all this, he was, they say, enveloped all round with a covering of skin; and by this they mean the outward sensitive flesh.
Tertullian AV 24
If they dream up such things about God--or rather about gods --what sort of things will they dream up about man? They say that after the Demiurge has set the world in motion, he turns his hand to man. He gathers material for making man not (as they say) from the "dry" land, which is the only one we know --they say this as if this land were not yet dry, although it became so later, since at that time the waters had not yet been separated from the remaining mud. Instead, he gathers the material from the invisible mass of that well-known metaphysical matter, from its flowing and viscous part. I take the liberty of conjecturing as to its origin, since no one has revealed it yet: since fluidity and viscosity are characteristics of liquids and since all liquids flowed from Sophia's tears, it follows that we must believe mud to be the rheum and sand which are indeed the dregs of tears, just as mud is the sediment of water. In this way the Demiurge shapes man and gives him life from his own breath.Thus man is supposed to be material and soul-like since he is made after the Demiurge's image and likeness as a four-fold creation: as his image we will grant that he be considered earthy, i.e., material, even though the Demiurge is not material; as his likeness he must be soul-like, because the Demiurge is also afterwards they say that a fleshy coating was put on over the earthy and that this coating is the shirt of skin which has sense organs.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Is there a Relationship Between Papias's Discussion of Mark's Gospel and the First Book of Against Heresies?

Post by Secret Alias »

Irenaeus AH 1.5.6
6. But they further affirm that the Demiurge himself was ignorant of that offspring of his mother Achamoth, which she brought forth as a consequence of her contemplation of those angels who waited on the Saviour, and which was, like herself, of a spiritual nature. She took advantage of this ignorance to deposit it (her production) in him without his knowledge,in order that, being by his instrumentality infused into that animal soul proceeding from himself, and being thus carried as in a womb in this material body, while it gradually increased in strength, might in course of time become fitted for the reception of perfect rationality. Thus it came to pass, then, according to them, that, without any knowledge on the part of the Demiurge, the man formed by his inspiration was at the same time, through an unspeakable providence, rendered a spiritual man by the simultaneous inspiration received from Sophia. For, as he was ignorant of his mother, so neither did he recognise her offspring. This [offspring] they also declare to be the Ecclesia, an emblem of the Ecclesia which is above.This, then, is the kind of man whom they conceive of: he has his animal soul from the Demiurge, his body from the earth, his fleshy part from matter, and his spiritual man from the mother Achamoth.
Tertullian AV 25
Achamoth had a small inheritance of spirit-like seed derived from the substance of her mother, Sophia, and identical to her mother. Achamoth hid this away in her son the Demiurge all unknown to him. (Imagine the perseverance of her secret foresight!) She deposited it and hid it for this purpose, namely that when the Demiurge later blew the soul into Adam with his breath, that spirit-like seed might be diverted into the earthy matter through the windpipe. Then, after it had been nourished in the material body as in a uterus and after it had grown to maturity there, it might be found capable of receiving one day the complete Logos. Consequently, when the Demiurge was grafting this scion of his soul onto Adam, the "spirit-like man" lay hidden there too, since it had been planted in the Demiurge's breath and introduced along with the breath in Adam's body. I say "hidden" because the Demiurge knew no more about this seed from his mother than he did about her herself. This seed they call Church. They say it is a mirror of the higher Church and Man; accordingly they consider this seed as an inheritance from Achamoth, just as they consider the soul-like part as coming from the Demiurge, the earthy from the primordial substance, the fleshy from matter. Now you have a new Geryon, only four-fold instead of three.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Is there a Relationship Between Papias's Discussion of Mark's Gospel and the First Book of Against Heresies?

Post by Secret Alias »

I have to admit - if you figure that the testimonies of the Church Fathers demonstrate that Valentinian gnosis was already existing c. 150 CE in two different forms it is mind-boggling to contemplate the origins of this system. It is so detailed, rich and varied but at the same so different from surviving Jewish gnosis. The idea of Yahweh as a kind of semi-retarded divinity controlled by a secret wife with a father he doesn't know either and the whole relationship with his son and a secret son within his son. Fucking weird. You'd think they were doing drugs in antiquity. Maybe they were ...

I never paid much attention to Valentinian thought because of its inherent 'strangeness.' But just look at some of the basics here. If 'ekklesia' is female and it is planted into the soul of Adam as AV says then it is clearly waiting for its pairing with the male Anthropos. You already know what I see in here. But, as AV notes, the way things play out in this male/female pairing is odd. Jesus plainly says in the gospel that the angels in heaven don't get married. How did the Valentinians get around that when their aeons were paired male-female? Boggles the mind.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Is there a Relationship Between Papias's Discussion of Mark's Gospel and the First Book of Against Heresies?

Post by Secret Alias »

Irenaeus 1.6.1
There being thus three kinds of substances, they declare of all that is material (which they also describe as being "on the left hand") that it must of necessity perish, inasmuch as it is incapable of receiving any afflatus of incorruption. As to every animal existence (which they also denominate "on the right hand"), they hold that, inasmuch as it is a mean between the spiritual and the material, it passes to the side to which inclination draws it. Spiritual substance, again, they describe as having been sent forth for this end, that, being here united with that which is animal, it might assume shape, the two elements being simultaneously subjected to the same discipline. And this they declare to be "the salt"(1) and "the light of the world." For the animal substance had need of training by means of the outward senses; and on this account they affirm that the world was created, as well as that the Saviour came to the animal substance (which was possessed of free-will), that He might secure for it salvation. For they affirm that He received the first-fruits of those whom He was to save [as follows], from Achamoth that which was spiritual, while He was invested by the Demiurge with the animal Christ, but was begirt by a [special] dispensation with a body endowed with an animal nature, yet constructed with unspeakable skill, so that it might be visible and tangible, and capable of enduring suffering. At the same time, they deny that He assumed anything material [into His nature], since indeed matter is incapable of salvation. They further hold that the consummation of all things will take place when all that is spiritual has been formed and perfected by Gnosis (knowledge); and by this they mean spiritual men who have attained to the perfect knowledge of God, and been initiated into these mysteries. And they represent themselves to be these persons.
Tertullian AV 26a
Just as they assign different origins to each part, so they assign to each a different end: to the material (fleshy) nature, which they also call "left hand," they assign certain destruction; to the soul-like, which they call "right-hand," they assign a contingent fate depending on whether it inclines more toward the spirit-like or more toward the material realms, between which it wavers. Because of this (they say), the spirit-like nature was sent out to prepare the soul like nature, so that the soul-like nature could be educated with it and trained by long association. Otherwise, the soul like nature would have lacked even the training furnished by the senses. For this purpose, the structure of the world was devised, for this Saviour was presented to the world, namely for the salvation of the soul-like nature. In still another version, they will have you believe that this prodigy (Saviour) put on the chief parts of those substances, the entirety of which he intended to save. He did this by taking on the spirit-like nature from Achamoth and the soul-like nature, represented in Christ, which he derived from the Demiurge. As for the rest, he had a bodily nature, (which was made from soul-like substance with wonderful and indescribable skill), only for the sake of helping himself in his work; in it he might be capable of being met, seen, touched, and even capable of dying for an ungrateful world. In reality, however, there was nothing material in him since matter is wholly alien to salvation. They say this as if other natures needed Saviour more than those who lack salvation! All this so that they might revoke our flesh's hope of salvation by estranging it from Christ!
Last edited by Secret Alias on Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Is there a Relationship Between Papias's Discussion of Mark's Gospel and the First Book of Against Heresies?

Post by Secret Alias »

Irenaeus 1.6.2 - 4
2. Animal men, again, are instructed in animal things; such men, namely, as are established by their works, and by a mere faith, while they have not perfect knowledge. We of the Church, they say, are these persons. Wherefore also they maintain that good works are necessary to us, for that otherwise it is impossible we should be saved. But as to themselves, they hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions in which they may be involved.

3. Wherefore also it comes to pass, that the "most perfect" among them addict themselves without fear to all those kinds of forbidden deeds of which the Scriptures assure us that "they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." For instance, they make no scruple about eating meats offered in sacrifice to idols, imagining that they can in this way contract no defilement. Then, again, at every heathen festival celebrated in honour of the idols, these men are the first to assemble; and to such a pitch do they go, that some of them do not even keep away from that bloody spectacle hateful both to God and men, in which gladiators either fight with wild beasts, or singly encounter one another. Others of them yield themselves up to the lusts of the flesh with the utmost greediness, maintaining that carnal things should be allowed to the carnal nature, while spiritual things are provided for the spiritual. Some of them, moreover, are in the habit of defiling those women to whom they have taught the above doctrine, as has frequently been confessed by those women who have been led astray by certain of them, on their returning to the Church of God, and acknowledging this along with the rest of their errors. Others of them, too, openly and without a blush, having become passionately attached to certain women, seduce them away from their husbands, and contract marriages of their own with them. Others of them, again, who pretend at first. to live in all modesty with them as with sisters, have in course of time been revealed in their true colours, when the sister has been found with child by her [pretended] brother.

4. And committing many other abominations and impieties, they run us down (who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word) as utterly contemptible and ignorant persons, while they highly exalt themselves, and claim to be perfect, and the elect seed. For they declare that we simply receive grace for use, wherefore also it will again be taken away from us; but that they themselves have grace as their own special possession, which has descended from above by means of an unspeakable and indescribable conjunction; and on this account more will be given them. They maintain, therefore, that in every way it is always necessary for them to practise the mystery of conjunction. And that they may persuade the thoughtless to believe this, they are in the habit of using these very words, "Whosoever being in this world does not so love a woman as to obtain possession of her, is not of the truth, nor shall attain to the truth. But whosoever being of this world has intercourse with woman, shall not attain to the truth, because he has so acted under the power of concupiscence." On this account, they tell us that it is necessary for us whom they call animal men, and describe as being of the world, to practise continence and good works, that by this means we may attain at length to the intermediate habitation, but that to them who are called "the spiritual and perfect" such a course of conduct is not at all necessary. For it is not conduct of any kind which leads into the Pleroma, but the seed sent forth thence in a feeble, immature state, and here brought to perfection.

1. When all the seed shall have come to perfection, they state that then their mother Achamoth shall pass from the intermediate place, and enter in within the Pleroma, and shall receive as her spouse the Saviour, who sprang from all the AEons, that thus a conjunction may be formed between the Saviour and Sophia, that is, Achamoth. These, then, are the bridegroom and bride, while the nuptial chamber is the full extent of the Pleroma. The spiritual seed, again, being divested of their animal souls,(2) and becoming intelligent spirits, shall in an irresistible and invisible manner enter in within the Pleroma, and be bestowed as brides on those angels who wait upon the Saviour. The Demiurge himself will pass into the place of his mother Sophia; that is, the intermediate habitation. In this intermediate place, also, shall the souls of the righteous repose; but nothing of an animal nature shall find admittance to the Pleroma. When these things have taken place as described, then shall that fire which lies hidden in the world blaze forth and bum; and while destroying all matter, shall also be extinguished along with it, and have no further existence. They affirm that the Demiurge was acquainted with none of these things before the advent of the Saviour.
Tertullian AV 26b

-nothing-
Last edited by Secret Alias on Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Is there a Relationship Between Papias's Discussion of Mark's Gospel and the First Book of Against Heresies?

Post by Secret Alias »

I think this much is clear:

1. neither AH nor AV preserves the original text.
2. the original text seems to have resembled Hegesippus's original report on the Carpocratians
3. many of the charges against the Valentinians resemble those of Carpocratians. In both cases we have early groups first identifying themselves as 'gnostics' in Rome who are close to Gentile communities who embarrass the Church by their libertine conduct.
4. chief among the charges is the notion that Christians gather in licentious 'orgies' which - in the case of the Valentinians - is connected with the idea that the aeons above engaged in some sort of 'conjunction' (coetus) which resembled sexual intercourse (coitus).
5. there are clear times where the sexualized language of AH is toned down by AV (above). But at the same time AV preserves sexualized content that is not present in AH. The implication seems to be that in its original form the Valentinians were indistinguishable from the Valentinians or Hegesippus's report identified a group of 'gnostics' who were identified as Harpocratians or Carpocratians (Celsus Harpocratians of Salome) who might well have been Valentinian.
6. Irenaeus's efforts to connect Valentinians with the Gospel of John seem to be based only on their use of the prologue of John. Very little else in John seems to get picked up in their reporting (beyond Origen's work against Heracleon). This Roman community could well have used Secret Mark if Secret Mark had the Johannine prologue as its introduction.
7. The Irenaean effort to link the Valentinians with the Gospel of John are paralleled by the Marcionite link with Luke. Both might have been artificial. That Clement connects Secret Mark with the Carpocratians might have been part of a broader effort to avoid connection with the Valentinians. Clement cites Valentinus's works. Must have been present in his library. Origen's patron Ambrose was a (former) Valentinian.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Is there a Relationship Between Papias's Discussion of Mark's Gospel and the First Book of Against Heresies?

Post by Secret Alias »

Irenaeus AH 1.7.2
2.There are also some who maintain that he also produced Christ as his own proper son, but of an animal nature, and that mention was made of him by the prophets. This Christ passed through Mary just as water flows through a tube; and there descended upon him in the form of a dove it the time of his baptism, that Saviour who belonged to the Pleroma, and was formed by the combined efforts of all its inhabitants. In him there existed also that spiritual seed which proceeded from Achamoth. They hold, accordingly, that our Lord, while preserving the type of the first-begotten and primary tetrad, was compounded of these four substances,--of that which is spiritual, in so far as He was from Achamoth; of that which is animal, as being from the Demiurge by a special dispensation, inasmuch as He was formed [corporeally] with unspeakable skill; and of the Saviour, as respects that dove which descended upon Him. He also continued free from all suffering, since indeed it was not possible that He should suffer who was at once incomprehensible and invisible. And for this reason the Spirit of Christ, who had been placed within Him, was taken away when He was brought before Pilate. They maintain, further, that not even the seed which He had received from the mother [Achamoth] was subject to suffering; for it, too, was impassible, as being spiritual, and invisible even to the Demiurge himself. It follows, then, according to them, that the animal Christ, and that which had been formed mysteriously by a special dispensation, underwent suffering, that the mother might exhibit through him a type of the Christ above, namely, of him who extended himself through Stauros, and imparted to Achamoth shape, so far as substance was concerned. For they declare that all these transactions were counterparts of what took place above.
Tertullian AV 27
Now I continue with what they say about Christ on whom they graft Jesus--with the same liberty as when they stuff the spirit-like seed in him along with the soul-like breath. They make him a mash of inventions of both Men and gods: the Demiurge also has his own Christ, his natural son (consequently soul-like), produced from himself, preached by the prophets. His nature must be decided by prepositions: specifically, he was produced through a virgin, not from a virgin, because he came into existence carried in a virgin in a transportational, not a generational, sense. He came through her, not from her; he experienced her not as a mother but as a conveyance. Upon this Christ, then, in the sacrament of baptism, Jesus descended in the form of a dove. Apart from this, there was even in this Christ spice from the spirit-like seed of Achamoth- to keep the rest of the stuffing from spoiling, I presume. Following the analogy of the first Tetrad, they crowd him with four substances: the spirit-like from Achamoth, the soul-like from the Demiurge, the bodily which is indescribable, and the substance from Saviour, namely dove-like. Saviour at any rate remained in Christ untouched, unhurt, unknown. Finally, when captured, he left him during Pilate's questioning. Likewise, the seed from his mother did not receive injury, being equally, immune and unknown even to the Demiurge. The soul-like and bodily Christ suffered to illustrate the experience of the higher Christ who was stretched on Cross, otherwise known as Horos, when he shaped Achamoth in essence, though not intelligible form. In such a way everything becomes an illustration or image; even, obviously, these Christians themselves are imaginary.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Is there a Relationship Between Papias's Discussion of Mark's Gospel and the First Book of Against Heresies?

Post by Secret Alias »

Irenaeus AH 1.7.3,4
3 They maintain, moreover, that those souls which possess the seed of Achamoth are superior to the rest, and are more dearly loved by the Demiurge than others, while he knows not the true cause thereof, but imagines that they are what they are through his favour towards them. Wherefore, also, they say he distributed them to prophets, priests, and kings; and they declare that many things were spoken(7) by this seed through the prophets, inasmuch as it was endowed with a transcendently lofty nature. The mother also, they say, spake much about things above, and that both through him and through the souls which were formed by him. Then, again, they divide the prophecies [into different classes], maintaining that one portion was uttered by the mother, a second by her seed, and a third by the Demiurge. In like manner, they hold that Jesus uttered some things under the influence of the Saviour, others under that of the mother, and others still under that of the Demiurge, as we shall show further on in our work.

4. The Demiurge, while ignorant of those things which were higher than himself, was indeed excited by the announcements made [through the prophets], but treated them with contempt, attributing them sometimes to one cause and sometimes to another; either to the prophetic spirit (which itself possesses the power of self-excitement), or to [mere unassisted] man, or that it was simply a crafty device of the lower [and baser order of men].(1) He remained thus ignorant until the appearing of the Lord. But they relate that when the Saviour came, the Demiurge learned all things from Him, and gladly with all, his power joined himself to Him. They maintain that he is the centurion mentioned in the Gospel, who addressed the Saviour in these words: "For I also am one having soldiers and servants under my authority; and whatsoever I command they do."(2) They further hold that he will continue administering the affairs of the world as long as that is fitting and needful, and specially that he may exercise a care over the Church; while at the same time he is influenced by the knowledge of the reward prepared for him, namely, that he may attain to the habitation of his mother.
Tertullian AV 28
Meanwhile, the Demiurge is still ignorant of all this. Even though he is supposed to proclaim these matters through the prophets, he is not aware of the true meaning of this task of his, because the Valentinians allot the prophets' patronage to three entities: Achamoth, her seed, the Demiurge. Anyway, when he has heard of Saviour's approach, he runs to meet him crying "Hail!" He came with his entire force (the symbol for this is the centurion in the gospel), and when he was enlightened by Saviour concerning everything, he discovered his own prospects, namely that he would succeed to his mother's office. Hereafter he administers the world confidently, especially for the sake of protecting the church as long as necessary.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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