Re: YHWH, not Judas, was the original betrayer
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:38 am
which is totally and gratuitously false, since the following words are sic et simpliciter of Celsus, not of Origen and not even filtered by Origen:Joseph D. L. wrote: ↑Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:14 am To begin with, we don't have Celsus's own words. They're all filtered through Origen.
Let no one suppose that I am ignorant that some of them will concede that their God is the same as that of the Jews, while others will maintain that he is a different one, to whom the latter is in opposition, and that it was from the former that the Son came.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04165.htm
I am sorry, but according to your same incipit, "to begin with", you have failed to persuade me that we don't have Celsus's direct words. Hence my claim continues to be correct: Celsus claims independent knowledge of Marcionites, and Celsus reports that their supreme god is "in opposition" to YHWH.
I see that you are totally unaware of Greek language, too.
"In opposition" translates the Greek ἐναντίον. This is its precise meaning:
Definition
over against, opposite
of place, opposite, contrary (of the wind)
metaph.
opposed as an adversary, hostile, antagonistic in feeling or act
an opponent
over against, opposite
of place, opposite, contrary (of the wind)
metaph.
opposed as an adversary, hostile, antagonistic in feeling or act
an opponent
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicon ... ntion.html
Hence all your vain apologies can't escape/avoid the clear truth: the Marcion's supreme god was "opposed as an adversary, hostile, antagonistic" against YHWH, who is therefore only a bastard demiurge.
said by one who ignores deliberately the meaning of ἐναντίον, I take your words as a compliment and a recognition of my superiority.Joseph D. L. wrote: ↑Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:14 am The difference between us Giuseppe is I go with what the evidence shows, while you go with whatever your interpretation and beliefs are. Evidence comes first. Not your beliefs.
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About criterion of embarrassment, it is evident that a god abandoning Jesus on the cross without make him risen is a cruel god. Which is embarrassing. Therefore, by applying the criterion of embarrassment, I infer that the older belief was that a bastard god conspired against Jesus and that god was the creator, the god of the Jews.