Why 3 crucified

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Why 3 crucified

Post by Joseph D. L. » Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:30 am

But the centurion only says that Jesus was the Son of God. Not that this man is dead.

Like I said it's probably symbolic because the two thieves are dead themselves.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Why 3 crucified

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:32 am

Gospel of Nicodemus is the key, here. Thank you again Joseph D.L. :cheers:

It says that not only the Good Thief, but also the 2 sons of Simon (the Cyrenaic) confirmed, at their resurrection, that Jesus was dead on the cross.

This latter detail allows me to answer to Ben's question, when he asked me what is the evidence that Alexander and Rufus were introduced as witnesses of the fact that the crucified one was Jesus and not Simon. :cheers:
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Martin Klatt
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Re: Why 3 crucified

Post by Martin Klatt » Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:39 am

Last edited by Martin Klatt on Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:45 am, edited 14 times in total.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Why 3 crucified

Post by Joseph D. L. » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:26 am

You're really missing the point. The two thieves are not actual. They are there to fulfill a narrative role.

After all, in John 5 Jesus outright says the statute of two witnesses is necessary for a testament, yet negates this by saying that his witness is enough. So does that mean that Jesus isn't the Son of Man? No, because that's not what the overall narrative is about.

Ἰδὼν δὲ ὁ κεντυρίων ὁ παρεστηκὼς ἐξ ἐναντίας αὐτοῦ ὅτι οὕτως ἐξέπνευσεν, εἶπεν “Ἀληθῶς οὗτος ὁ ἄνθρωπος Υἱὸς Θεοῦ ἦν."

Ἰδὼν δὲ ὁ κεντυρίων ὁ παρεστηκὼς ἐξ ἐναντίας αὐτοῦ ὅτι οὕτως κράξας ἐξέπνευσεν, εἴπεν, Ἀληθῶς ὁ ἄνθρωπος οὗτος υἱὸς ἦν θεοῦ.


And when the centurion, who stood facing him, saw that in this way he breathed his last, he said, “Truly this man was the Son of God!”

And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.



The one who breathed his last/cried out, is Jesus himself. Not the centurion.

You're taking this way too literally... or not literally... enough(???)

Martin Klatt
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Re: Why 3 crucified

Post by Martin Klatt » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:40 am

Last edited by Martin Klatt on Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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rakovsky
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Re: Why 3 crucified

Post by rakovsky » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:51 am

"Why Three Crucified?"
A reference to the Trinity.
There are alot of Threesome references in the Bible, like three angels visiting Abraham as God visiting him, or like the three magi visiting Jesus as a baby in the manger. Or Isaiah's "Holy Holy Holy" praise for God. Or the three days in the tomb. Or Jonah's three days in the whale. Or Esther's three days of prayer. The theologians' theory is that the threesome reference is related to God being in a Trinity.

For ancient Canaan, you had Yahweh, Asherah, and their son Baal. The Christian authors of the NT had Father (the Source), Son (Logos & Pantocrator), and Holy Spirit.
Christian-Gnostic writings sometimes emphasized threesomeness as well. I imagine that the Jewish writer Philo also had the Father, Logos, and Holy Spirit concept.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com

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Giuseppe
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Re: Why 3 crucified

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:44 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:32 am
This latter detail allows me to answer to Ben's question, when he asked me what is the evidence that Alexander and Rufus were introduced as witnesses of the fact that the crucified one was Jesus and not Simon. :cheers:
I refer to this my post that raised Ben's question:
Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:00 pm
The point is that Alexander and Rufus are mentioned in the Acts of Peter and Andrew, in company of Peter and Glaukias. Now, Glaukias was claimed by Basilides as a reporter of what happened about the replacement of Jesus with Simon on the cross. Hence, Glaukias probably, per Basilides, knew these things from Alexander and Rufus, the sons of the crucified (per Basilides).

Hence Matthew and Luke omitted Alexander and Rufus because they knew the truth: that Alexander and Rufus were too much embarrassing witnesses (from a catholic POV) of the not-crucifixion of Jesus, i.e. of the crucifixion of the Cyrenaic in the place of Jesus.

The fourth gospel, being marcionite (and Marcion wanted the death of Jesus, not of a his clone), omitted the entire episode dear to Basilides.

But then proto-Mark was really written by Basilides, since our Mark is probably a mere Judaizer

Only an author who found an interest behind Alexander and Rufus (an interest not shared surprisingly by Matthew and Luke, despite of the famous desire of testimonia among the catholics, see Papias) could have written proto-Mark.

I can only think that Basilides was that author.

If you want to think otherwise, then you should say me why Alexander and Rufus are in Mark but not in Matthew and Luke.


Incredibly, the Internet rumor read by me time ago, about Robert Price saying that Basilides or Basilidians was the author of proto-Mark, confirms again and again that prof Price is a great scholar.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Why 3 crucified

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:51 am

rakovsky wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:51 am
"Why Three Crucified?"
A reference to the Trinity.
never heard a more blasphemous claim than that. Do you mean say that at least two persons of trinity are evil as the thieves?

Joseph D.L. can you give the precise link/reference to GNicodemus for you quote above I like a lot? Thanks in advance.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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rakovsky
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Re: Why 3 crucified

Post by rakovsky » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:02 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:51 am
rakovsky wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:51 am
"Why Three Crucified?"
A reference to the Trinity.
never heard a more blasphemous claim than that. Do you mean say that at least two persons of trinity are evil as the thieves?
No, it means that the persons in the Trinity make up a threesome as do other threesomes in the Bible, because we are dealing with symbolic pre-figurements.
Of the three on crosses, two of the three committed sins, and the third (Jesus) took on the status of a sinner, and this alludes to the Trinity theme in the Bible, but this doesn't mean that God is two sinners and only one who underwent substitutionary atonement, just as the Trinity allusion in the three magi story doesn't mean that God is literally three kings from physical lands east of Judea. Likewise, the three days and nights of Jonah in the fish did not mean that Jesus would be exactly 72 hours in the tomb. This is because we are dealing with symbolic prefigurements.
THE POWER OF THREE
NUMBER 3 PLAYS A MEANINGFUL ROLE IN THE FAITH
BY CATHI DOUGLAS 4/6/2017

“At the heart of the Christian faith is our belief in a God whose self-revelation as Creator, Redeemer and Life-giver is expressed in our dogmatic belief in a God who is a Trinity of Persons – One God in three Divine Persons – Father, Son and Holy Spirit,” Msgr. Holquin explains.

“The number three is also intimately associated with the pivotal moment in Salvation history, the Lord’s dying and rising in the Easter Mystery,” he continues. “The Lord is in the tomb for three days.” The Easter Triduum is the summit of the liturgical year. Though chronologically three days, Holy Thursday to Easter Sunday are liturgically one day as they unfold for us the unity of Christ’s Paschal Mystery.
...
Samuel is called by the Lord three times before he realizes it and answers. Satan tempts Jesus three times before giving up. It is on the third day of creation that Earth is made. The placard on the cross is written in 3 languages. Jesus raised three people from the dead – Lazarus, a widow’s son, and the daughter of a man named Jairus.

There are three angels named in the Bible: Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer. Jesus... fell under the cross three times on the Via Dolorosa and was crucified on the cross at the third hour of the day. He rose from the dead on the third day.

“Even the moment of the Lord’s death is haunted by the number three,” Msgr. Holquin says, “as three crosses surmount the hill of Calvary.”
Orange County Catholic, https://occatholic.com/the-power-of-three/
Image

It makes sense that since in Christian theology God is a Trinity and since Christian writers were big on symbolism that different instances of Three-some-ness would manifest themselves through the Christian writings in the form of allusions.

For instance, in the Ikon above, the literal depiction is considered to be the three angels who visited Abraham, but it's commonly treated as an ikon of the Trinity, either because God visited in the form of three angels or because the angels' threesomeness symbolize God's threesomeness.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com

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Giuseppe
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Re: Why 3 crucified

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:00 am

Too generic.

The two thieves are there because their midrashical source reveals that their function is to witness the crucifixion of Jesus.

And their function is to witness the crucifixion of Jesus for the same reason of Ignatius:

Stop your ears, therefore, when any one speaks to you at variance with Jesus Christ, who was descended from David, and was also of Mary; who was truly born, and ate and drank. He was truly persecuted under Pontius Pilate; He was truly crucified, and [truly] died, in the sight of beings in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0106.htm

I.e. against Docetists who denied that Jesus was really crucified.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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