Paul and the Nazarenes

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perseusomega9
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Paul and the Nazarenes

Post by perseusomega9 »

I was looking through Peter's blog and came across this http://peterkirby.com/self-identifications.html table and noticed there is no mention of Nazarene in Paul's writings. Does anyone have any ideas why this is the case since Nazarenes/oreans is supposedly an older title for Christians and Paul is supposedly pretty early?
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe
Charles Wilson
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Re: Paul and the Nazarenes

Post by Charles Wilson »

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5341.htm

I believe that there is a word play on "Guard". This may be more Temple Service material. Nat'Sar => Naz-ar to hide meaing of the original intent.

CW
Charles Wilson
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Re: Paul and the Nazarenes

Post by Charles Wilson »

I had hoped to get back sooner to my rather cryptic Post to expand on it and hopefully make some sense out of it but was unable.
The suggestion that "Nazar-ene" was a word play on "Nat'Sar" ( => "Guard") might be interesting but ultimately unsatisfactory if considered in isolation. There is no reason for it to be this way unless there is something else in the data that would suggest itself. Like:

Mark 13: 33 - 37 (RSV):

[33] Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come.
[34] It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch.
[35] Watch therefore -- for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or in the morning --
[36] lest he come suddenly and find you asleep.
[37] And what I say to you I say to all: Watch."

There is most certainly something in the data to suggest that there is a word play with nat'sar. If not this, then there may be some other word play. Nonetheless:

In the research, there is strong information to me that there was a Prior Story involving the Passover of 4 BCE. Herod dies one week too soon and the Herodians and Romans have Archelaus in power at the Passover. The soldiers are ordered in just before daybreak and 3000 people - by Josephus' crude reckoning - are murdered. Passover is cancelled and the entire Nation is Unclean. The events surrounding this Atrocity describe a full fledged Coup attempt led by the Priests.

Peter is the Main Character and he is a child in this tableau. He may have been one of those whose job was to "WATCH" - "Be On Guard" - and alert the Priests of Immer (and Sympathizers) for upcoming troubles. Alas, he and others fail in their job and Antonia is closed, the soldiers come in and murder the worshipers.

When the Stories are rewritten, it is reasonable to suggest that, as the Amalgamation of characters into the "Jesus" Story is made, the very important part of the "Guards" must be incorporated as well. "Jesus the Nat'Sar (Guard)" becomes "Jesus the Nazar-ene". We get another Make Believe City in the bargain. We thus get ready made Stories of Metaphysical Significance already there - "Enter through the Narrow Door", "You must turn as a child", "Watch, I say..."

Someone who might ask if the "Narrow Door" might be a Real, Physical Door is laughed at. "Jesus the Guard"? Preposterous!

Such is the Power of Transvaluation.

CW
ghost
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Re: Paul and the Nazarenes

Post by ghost »

Regarding Jesus of Nazareth, "Nazareth" is a word play on "Ravenna", somehow like this:

ravenna
ra-ve-na
na-ve-ra
na-ze-ra
na-za-ra
nazara
nazareth
Charles Wilson
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Re: Paul and the Nazarenes

Post by Charles Wilson »

ghost wrote:Regarding Jesus of Nazareth, "Nazareth" is a word play on "Ravenna", somehow like this:

ravenna
ra-ve-na
na-ve-ra
na-ze-ra
na-za-ra
nazara
nazareth
"N the Integral of "Cabin" d (cabin) = Log Cabin + "C" = House Boat.

-Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow

Sorry ghost. Not this time...

CW
perseusomega9
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Re: Paul and the Nazarenes

Post by perseusomega9 »

lol calculus

Anyone besides the ceasaropapists want to weigh in?
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe
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Tenorikuma
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Re: Paul and the Nazarenes

Post by Tenorikuma »

I don't think the Nazarenes/Nazoreans were part of the same Christ cult movement Paul was a part of. If I had to guess, I'd say that second-century Christianity (Chrestianity?) was a merger of different movements.
Diogenes the Cynic
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Re: Paul and the Nazarenes

Post by Diogenes the Cynic »

If the Nazarenes/Nazareans were identical to or similar to the Ebionites, then that would explain it since the Ebionites were strongly pronomian and (according to Epiphanius) saw Paul as a heretical, anti-Jewish Hellenizer and a perverter of the Gospel. The Palestinian Jewish Jesus sects were Paul's biggest opponents and enemies. He hated them, they hated him. If he mentions them in the Epistles, I would expect it to be in an indirect, allusive way, and even if he mentioned them directly, I would expect it to be in an openly hostile way and would further expect such references to be removed by catholizing redactors to maintain the fairy tale that Paul had convinced the Jerusalem movement that he was right and that they were all on the same hunky-dory page after that.
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Blood
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Re: Paul and the Nazarenes

Post by Blood »

Diogenes the Cynic wrote:If the Nazarenes/Nazareans were identical to or similar to the Ebionites, then that would explain it since the Ebionites were strongly pronomian and (according to Epiphanius) saw Paul as a heretical, anti-Jewish Hellenizer and a perverter of the Gospel. The Palestinian Jewish Jesus sects were Paul's biggest opponents and enemies. He hated them, they hated him. If he mentions them in the Epistles, I would expect it to be in an indirect, allusive way, and even if he mentioned them directly, I would expect it to be in an openly hostile way and would further expect such references to be removed by catholizing redactors to maintain the fairy tale that Paul had convinced the Jerusalem movement that he was right and that they were all on the same hunky-dory page after that.
I'm not sure there ever really were such things as "Palestinian Jewish Jesus sects," since Christianity was obviously not a Jewish religion but a Greco-Roman imitation/bastardization of Jewish religion. At any rate, all we know about the Ebionites and Nazarenes is filtered via church propagandists from Irenaeus onward, so no reliable historical information exists about these groups at all. They were probably just more disillusioned Greeks having a go at pop culture Judaism for a time.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
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