Was God a fire-breathing dragon?: the Bible explained

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GakuseiDon
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Was God a fire-breathing dragon?: the Bible explained

Post by GakuseiDon »

Dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago. But some survived, and evolved into intelligent creatures we now call 'dragons'. When primates came along, the dragons recognised their potential and thus organised those primates in order to use them for their own ends, accidently or deliberately shaping those primates into modern mankind. (Think 'Quatermass and the Pit' only with lizards instead of locusts) The dragons probably used magic to do this, though I don't want to speculate too much in this post. I shall just stick to the facts.

Post contents:

1. God described as dragon in the OT
2. Dragons as gods in pagan culture
3. God creates mankind
4. Dragons in Christianity
5. Jesus as dragon/human hybrid (warning: speculation)
6. Implications for Christianity
7. Reaction by the Guild

1. God described as a dragon in the OT

What did God look like?

Note: Background information in white boxes

2 Samuel 22

7 In my distress I called upon the Lord, And cried out to my God; He heard my voice from His temple, And my cry entered His ears.
8 "Then the earth shook and trembled; The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken, Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils, And devouring fire from His mouth;...
16 The foundations of the world were uncovered... At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

Exodus 19

18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

Exodus 33

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts
: but my face shall not be seen.

Exo 40:
34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

Psa 61:
4 I will abide in thy tabernacle for ever: I will trust in the covert of thy wings.

Psa 91:
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

God is described in the following terms:
1. He was able to breath fire from his mouth
2. He had smoke come out of his nostrils
3. When he landed on Mt Sinai, 'the whole mount quaked greatly', so he was large and heavy
4. He filled the tabernacle, so we can guess his size was roughly the size of the tabernacle
5. He could talk
6. He had a hand (claw?) large enough to cover Moses' face, and he had a face and back parts
7. He had wings

This is the classical description of a dragon!

Furthermore, the image of a serpent was considered the image of God, and a serpent's image was kept in the Jerusalem Temple:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpents_in_the_Bible

In the Book of Numbers, while Moses was in the wilderness, he mounted a serpent of bronze on a pole that functioned as a cure against the bite of the "seraphim", the "burning ones" (Numbers 21:4-9).

The Book of Isaiah expounds on the description of these fiery serpents as "flying saraphs"(YLT), or "flying dragons",[21] in the land of trouble and anguish (Isaiah 30:6).

In 2 Kings 18:4, a bronze serpent, alleged to be the one Moses made, was kept in Jerusalem's Temple[1] sanctuary.[23] The Israelites began to worship the object as an idol or image of God, by offering sacrifices and burning incense to it, until Hezekiah was made King. Hezekiah referred to it as Nehushtan[28] and had torn it down.

This reinforces the idea that the God of the OT was some form of dragon. And not just God, but His angels as well: the word for 'seraphim', the angels of God, is connected to 'fiery flying serpents'. Flying serpents is a theme that pops up in the OT several times.

What did God eat?

Lev 17:
5 To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the LORD.

Lev 9:
23 And Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle of meeting, and came out and blessed the people. Then the glory of the LORD appeared to all the people,
24 and fire came out from before the LORD and consumed the burnt offering and the fat on the altar. When all the people saw it, they shouted and fell on their faces.
Lev 10:
1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Typically, like any dragon, God consumed the offerings brought to the tabernacle by the Israelites. This is probably why the dragons helped the evolution of primates and taught humanity horticulture and animal husbandry. And it isn't a stretch to believe that this included humans like the sons of Aaron.

2. Dragons as gods in ancient cultures

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sethianism
In some versions of the myth, the Aeon Sophia imitates God's actions, performing an emanation of her own, without the prior approval of the other aeons in the Pleroma. This results in a crisis within the Pleroma, leading to the appearance of the Yaldabaoth, a "serpent with a lion's head." This figure is commonly known as the demiurge, the "artisan" or "craftsman," after the figure in Plato's Timaeus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(mythology)
In Greek mythology, Python was the serpent, sometimes represented as a medieval-style dragon, ... believed by the ancient Greeks to be at Delphi.

http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.8.viii.html
This removal was made with all possible haste, partly from a desire to obey the advice of the oracle, but still more for another reason. The Athenians say that they have in their Acropolis a huge serpent, which lives in the temple, and is the guardian of the whole place. Nor do they only say this, but, as if the serpent really dwelt there, every month they lay out its food, which consists of a honey-cake. Up to this time the honey-cake had always been consumed; but now it remained untouched.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ology.html
And there are some who prostitute even their own children and wives, and some are openly mutilated for the purpose of sodomy; and they refer these mysteries to the mother of the gods, and along with each of those whom you esteem gods there is painted a serpent, a great symbol and mystery.

Needless to say, dragon and serpents played a role in pagan religions in the region, with descriptions similar to the Dragon God in the OT. I'll leave it there, pretending as though I have lots more information on the topic.

3. God creates mankind

Gen 2:15
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Gen 6:1
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose...
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The Council of El was probably a group of intelligent evolved dinosaurs/dragons who decided to shape mankind into useful tools to help gather livestock and other farm produce. Yahweh was one of those dragons. Each of the dragons took the men and women they 'created' to different areas around the world, teaching them and setting them to work.

Somehow, the dragons found a way (using magic?) to interbreed with the humans, creating strange hybrids and mutations. Half human, half serpent hybrids appear in many ancient myths. Perhaps the dragons had a Magic Sperm Bank that helped them accomplish this task. (The symbol of a snake wrapped around a pole as a symbol for healing does bear an uncanny resemblence to DNA. Coincidence?) These hybrids later became the basis for stories about gods and demi-gods later on.

4. Dragons in Christianity

Dragons and dragon imagery have been present from the start of Christianity. Satan was called a dragon, there were early heretic sects like the gnostics who saw the serpent/dragon as a figure of wisdom and even associated it with Jesus (see below). I'll leave it there, though I have lots more information on the topic.

5. Jesus as dragon/human hybrid (warning: speculation)

Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew
http://www.gnosis.org/library/psudomat.htm
CHAP. 18.--And having come to a certain cave, and wishing to rest in it, the blessed Mary dismounted from her beast, and sat down with the child Jesus in her bosom. And there were with Joseph three boys, and with Mary a girl, going on the journey along with them. And, lo, suddenly there came forth from the cave many dragons; and when the children saw them, they cried out in great terror. Then Jesus went down from the bosom of His mother, and stood on His feet before the dragons; and they adored Jesus, and thereafter retired. Then was fulfilled that which was said by David the prophet, saying: Praise the Lord from the earth, ye dragons; ye dragons, and all ye deeps

The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis
http://preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/2 ... mis_01.pdf

37,1 37. Ophites, the persons who honor the serpent and regard him as Christ...

For their snake says it is Christ... These so-called Ophites too ascribe all knowledge to this snake, saying that it became the beginning of men’s knowledge...

Then, they say, [Ialdabaoth’s] sons he had begotten fashioned the man in the image of their father Ialdabaoth. Not easily or quickly, however... For these people too say, “The man was a creeping thing like a worm, not able either to look up or get to his feet.’” ... [They worked on man] And then, they say, the man stood on his feet, rose in mind above the eight heavens, and recognized and praised the Father on high who is above Ialdabaoth.
214,4 And then, distressed because the things high up above him had been recognized, Ialdabaoth stared bitterly down at the dung of matter and sired a power with a snake-like appearance, which they also call his son.

As my dear friend Earl Doherty writes: if an author doesn't mention X, then there is nothing to stop us thinking that the author believed Y. Paul doesn't mention dragons in relation to Jesus; is there anything stopping us from thinking that Paul thought that Jesus was a dragon/human hybrid? In fact, there is not. Paul doesn't rule it out at all.

Warning: the following is speculation!

Paul tells us that Jesus was given a new body when he was raised by God. Paul seems to have believed that Jesus was a man (controversial! Let's assume it for arguments sake). It might be that Jesus was conceived using 'holy spirit' dragon sperm from the Magic Sperm Bank. When Jesus died, his body was 'raised' in its dragon form and flew up to heaven, thus it disappeared from the tomb. When Jesus returns, it will be 'with the clouds'... like a dragon would.

The Gnostics seemed to rever dragons and some associated them with Jesus. The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew shows how the dragons of that time adored Jesus, possibly because they recognised a kindred spirit. The Ophites go a step further, and associate Christ with the serpent who brought knowledge. As Jesus said, "Be wise as a serpent."

Putting it all together, and if you'll allow me to speculate for once, the story seems to go like this:

The dragons found proto-mankind 'a creeping thing', 'not able either to look up or get to his feet'. They worked on mankind, teaching and providing knowledge. However, mankind eventually started to see God as something higher than the dragons. So the dragons created dragon/human hybrids, to try to bring humanity back to worshipping the old gods. Jesus was the last of those. But after Jesus died, those darn dumb proto-orthodox Christians got it wrong! Again! And so gnostic Christianity and their information about dragons was suppressed, leaving the proto-orthodox Christians and their supernatural mumbo-jumbo to thrive.

6. Implications for Christianity

What are the implications for Christianity? Does this mean it is now invalid? As a non-Christian myself, I say confidently: No! Restoring the ancient belief in God as a dragon can only improve Christianity, bringing it back to a more rational and natural basis than the supernatural beliefs it holds today.

To quote Thomas L. Brodie ("Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus"):
To say Jesus did not exist as a historical individual does not mean he has been eliminated... He is not eliminated, but seen in a new way... he does not lose his central place. In fact, his central place as ‘an image of the invisible God’ (Col. 1.15) can become clearer than ever.
Besides, kids love dragons and dinosaurs. Imagine having images of them in churches. Think of the merchandising rights. It's win-win.

7. Reaction by the Guild

So, how has the Guild reacted to this theory? You know the Guild, those fat-cat scholars in their ivory towers sitting on their historical Jesus studies loot. They have reacted in two ways:

1. Passively ignoring the theory, mostly because they are unaware of it
2. Actively working against the theory by 'circling the wagons', because they are aware of the theory's strength and so are afraid of it.

Those two things may sound contradictory. And they are.

If you look at the peer-reviewed literature on Bible studies for the last 20 years, no-one has addressed this theory at all. But why not? If the theory is so crazy, why not write an article to point it out? It should be easy to do, if the "God is dragon" theory is so out there. You can understand Christian scholars not wanting to look into the theory, since it touches on the very foundation of their beliefs. Obviously they are too scared to investigate the legitimacy of these ideas, in fact so afraid that they are largely unaware of the theory.

Disappointingly, even non-Christian scholars like Dr Bart Ehrman appears to be afraid to look into this theory. Probably because if he did take it seriously enough to write about it, he might lose his credibility and his job. The Guild, afraid of the strength of the theory, have 'circled the wagons' and would come down on him like a ton of bricks.

It's said that it isn't until the current generation of scholars die off that a new idea can gain mainstream acceptance. So it will take 20 years before my "God is dragon" theory is accepted by mainstream scholars. In the meantime, I may be able to convince a lot of people who don't know anything about the topic.

Any open-minded feedback (which means only feedback that supports my theory, please) is welcomed. Thank you.

(I really wanted to bring 'Ascension of Isaiah' into this, but couldn't think of a decent angle.)
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
Ulan
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Re: Was God a fire-breathing dragon?: the Bible explained

Post by Ulan »

This is a good one :lol: .
Martin Klatt

Re: Was God a fire-breathing dragon?: the Bible explained

Post by Martin Klatt »

You might be right about that.
Remember that Jesus tried to convince the rich man to sell his possessions and give it to the poor in order to have a thesaurus in heaven.
That must be that fire-dragon circling the earth to keep an eye on things.
Sure beats selling the Brooklyn Bridge eh?
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Joseph D. L.
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THIS IS YOUR GOD!!!

Post by Joseph D. L. »

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GakuseiDon
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Re: Was God a fire-breathing dragon?: the Bible explained

Post by GakuseiDon »

Wow! I like it. The Japanese written in large characters above the dragon, "ドン", literally spells out "Don". Freaky! (In Japanese, "don!" is the sound made when a heavy object drops, like "boom!")
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Was God a fire-breathing dragon?: the Bible explained

Post by GakuseiDon »

To the shock, I suspect, of no-one: My thread is in honour of April Fool's Day. I don't actually believe that dragons created mankind and that Jesus was a human/dragon hybrid. It's the basis of a sci-fi novel I've sketched out in my own mind. Perhaps the COVID-19 crisis will give me time to write it. (One thing I left out is that the Arc of the Covenant contains two large white viable dragon eggs, on which were written the Ten Commandments.)

However, I do believe that a lot of our early mythology was derived by observations of nature, including large fossils, bones of extinct animals, as well as events in the sky. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the stories in the Old Testament was inspired from such sources, including a view that in ancient times the gods were thought to be large physical creatures, even possibly reptilian in nature. The data is more intriguing than convincing though.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Was God a fire-breathing dragon?: the Bible explained

Post by Joseph D. L. »

GakuseiDon wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:40 pm Wow! I like it. The Japanese written in large characters above the dragon, "ドン", literally spells out "Don". Freaky! (In Japanese, "don!" is the sound made when a heavy object drops, like "boom!")
Just our Lord and Savior Kaido.

If YHWH appeared to me like that I'd drop to my knees and repent.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Was God a fire-breathing dragon?: the Bible explained

Post by Joseph D. L. »

To the shock, I suspect, of no-one: My thread is in honour of April Fool's Day.
What's that?
Paul the Uncertain
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Re: Was God a fire-breathing dragon?: the Bible explained

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

GakuseiDon wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:01 pm To the shock, I suspect, of no-one: My thread is in honour of April Fool's Day. I don't actually believe that dragons created mankind and that Jesus was a human/dragon hybrid. It's the basis of a sci-fi novel I've sketched out in my own mind. Perhaps the COVID-19 crisis will give me time to write it. (One thing I left out is that the Arc of the Covenant contains two large white viable dragon eggs, on which were written the Ten Commandments.)

However, I do believe that a lot of our early mythology was derived by observations of nature, including large fossils, bones of extinct animals, as well as events in the sky. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the stories in the Old Testament was inspired from such sources, including a view that in ancient times the gods were thought to be large physical creatures, even possibly reptilian in nature. The data is more intriguing than convincing though.
You might want to check out "draconic chronicler" (searchable term on Google.. the blog hosted on the Unexplained Mysteries site would be a good place to get the gist of his ideas quickly) ... when I read your OP, I briefly thought you might be him. IRL, he's an authority on ancient armor, but apparently he actually believes more-or-less what you posted, at least about YHWH.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Was God a fire-breathing dragon?: the Bible explained

Post by GakuseiDon »

Thanks, Paul the Uncertain. I came across the idea about 10 years ago on the internet; that person may well have been the source. I remember not being sure whether the person was serious or not, but it seemed consistent with the idea that some mythology was influenced by the discovery of fossils of extinct species. So I've always kept it in mind when reading through ancient sources. The "Jesus dragon/human hybrid" idea is mine though.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
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