What is going on in Revelation 11:8? Lord crucified in Egypt

[Peter Kirby]

This inspired an essay:

http://peterkirby.com/revelation118.html

Short answer, Rome wins.

[beowulf]

Is Jerusalem referred to as "the spiritual" Sodom and Egypt anywhere else? And why Sodom and Egypt?

It's fascinating that modern translations take "the Lord of them" to mean THEIR Lord was crucified. The Egyptians' Lord was crucified? Clearly, modern interpreters don't think "the spiritual Sodom and Egypt" can refer to Jerusalem; otherwise, they would have no problem translating it as OUR Lord.

According to Barnes “our” or "their" say the same thing:

This makes no essential difference in the sense, except that it directs the attention more particularly to the fact that they were treated like their own Master.

Barnes New Testament Notes
By Albert Barnes
http://www.ccel.org/

[dewitness]

This inspired an essay:

http://peterkirby.com/revelation118.html

Short answer, Rome wins.

You already conceded that Jerusalem won.

http://peterkirby.com/revelation118.html

Revelation 11:8 has a passage that has troubled some interpreters with the conflicting indications of the place mentioned in this verse, which could be taken as Jerusalem or Rome based on the text of Revelation itself. While most interpreters settle on seeing it as Jerusalem out of seeming necessity, this necessity can be obviated with an alternative interpretation of the crucified one being mentioned here...

Revelation 21:10 KJV

And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...

[Blood]

There is no evidence the author of Revelation was inspired by OT scriptures in order to define which is the great city.
Actually in Revelation, the great city is given a name, Babylon (16:19, 18:10, 18:21 & Babylon is "great" in 14:8, 17:5, 18:2). I do not know of any text where Babylon is equated to Jerusalem. Correct me if I am wrong.
Verses 17:18, 18:16 & 18:19 (which I quoted in an earlier posting) describe the great city as very powerful and wealthy & accessible by sea. That does not match either Jerusalem or Babylon (then a decaying city with no power or wealth).
Revelation 21:10, as quoted by Dewitness, is about the heavenly Jerusalem as the great city, not the real earthly city in Israel.
Rome is not named in Revelation, but strongly alluded to in several parts, more so in 17:8 (a woman sitting on seven hills, with a title "Babylon the Great" on her forehead 17:5).
Cordially, Bernard

Rev 18:19 does not say that the great city was accessible by sea. It says that merchant seamen grew rich by her wealth.

Babylon also had seven hills.

17:18 And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth.

18:16 “Alas, alas, for the great city
that was clothed in fine linen, in purple and scarlet,
bedecked with gold, with jewels, and with pearls!

18:19 And they threw dust on their heads, as they wept and mourned, crying out,
“Alas, alas, for the great city
where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth!

[Bernard Muller]

Rev 18:19 does not say that the great city was accessible by sea. It says that merchant seamen grew rich by her wealth.

Babylon also had seven hills.

17:18 And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth.

18:16 “Alas, alas, for the great city
that was clothed in fine linen, in purple and scarlet,
bedecked with gold, with jewels, and with pearls!

18:19 And they threw dust on their heads, as they wept and mourned, crying out,
“Alas, alas, for the great city
where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth!

Babylon was built in a flat alluvial plain.
Only Rome fits the bill, with all the criteria, wealth, power, seven hills and making sea worthy ship owners rich (many ships from all over the Roman empire were transporting goods to Ostia and Portus, the harbors of Rome)
Next, a coin minted under Vespasian's reign showing goddess Roma seated on seven hills:

You can see full picture here: http://historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html
Cordially, Bernard

[Peter Kirby]

Revelation 21:10 KJV

There's your problem. The KJV does not rely on the oldest manuscript witnesses.

Revelation 21:10 καὶ ἀπήνεγκέν με ἐν πνεύματι ἐπὶ ὄρος μέγα καὶ ὑψηλόν, καὶ ἔδειξέν μοι τὴν πόλιν τὴν ἁγίαν Ἰερουσαλὴμ καταβαίνουσαν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ (Rev 21:10 BGT)

Thus reads Alexandrinus and Sinaiticus. The KJV depends on the "Byzantine" text form.

[Peter Kirby]

According to Barnes “our” or "their" say the same thing:

Our/their is not the same thing, and the difference in translation derives from the disagreement of our Greek manuscripts. "Our" limits, while "their" opens up several avenues of interpretation, only one of which takes the possessive reference to "them" to be the two witnesses. This comment by Barnes just begs the question.

[beowulf]

According to Barnes “our” or "their" say the same thing:

Our/their is not the same thing, and the difference in translation derives from the disagreement of our Greek manuscripts. "Our" limits, while "their" opens up several avenues of interpretation, only one of which takes the possessive reference to "them" to be the two witnesses. This comment by Barnes just begs the question.

Barnes explains, asserts, that the sense of the phrase is essentially the same. It makes no real difference.

The common reading of the text here is "our Lord"—hmwn; the text now regarded as correct, however, (Griesbach, Tittmann, Hahn,) is "their Lord"— autwn. This makes no essential difference in the sense, except that it directs the attention more particularly to the fact that they were treated like their own Master.

The witnesses are killed in Jerusalem .Their (our) master Jesus was also killed in Jerusalem.

[beowulf]

Rev 18:19 does not say that the great city was accessible by sea. It says that merchant seamen grew rich by her wealth.

Babylon also had seven hills.

17:18 And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth.

18:16 “Alas, alas, for the great city
that was clothed in fine linen, in purple and scarlet,
bedecked with gold, with jewels, and with pearls!

18:19 And they threw dust on their heads, as they wept and mourned, crying out,
“Alas, alas, for the great city
where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth!

Babylon was built in a flat alluvial plain.
Only Rome fits the bill, with all the criteria, wealth, power, seven hills and making sea worthy ship owners rich (many ships from all over the Roman empire were transporting goods to Ostia and Portus, the harbors of Rome)
Next, a coin minted under Vespasian's reign showing goddess Roma seated on seven hills:

You can see full picture here: http://historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html
Cordially, Bernard

These mountains, then, are no mere heaps of earth or rocks, but "kings." The word "mountain" is often used as a Figure (Symbol, or Metaphor, or Metonymy) for a kingdom. It is used of Babylon itself in Jer. li. 25, and of Messiah's kingdom in Dan. ii. 35.

[beowulf]

Making sense and being logical in a religious forum is a tall order!!

I am reading the Ignatius Catholic Annotated Bible New Testament and the note

17.8

seven hills ....some see a reference to Jerusalem, noting that it too was said to rest on seven hills...

Bullinger writes in his commentary to revelation:

The greater error has always been in making anything, rather than Israel, the pivot of the
prophecies: and reckoning the points of the compass from any centre except Jerusalem, or the place
where the Vision was seen, or the prophecy written.