What is going on in Revelation 11:8? Lord crucified in Egypt

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Blood
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What is going on in Revelation 11:8? Lord crucified in Egypt

Post by Blood » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:37 pm

The "two witnesses" prophecy of Revelation 11:

"I will give power to the two witnesses of me ... two olive trees and two lamp stands which before the Lord of the earth stand."

Then the Beast will come out of the earth and kill them. And their bodies will lie unburied on the street of the city "which is called spiritually Sodom and Egypt where also the Lord of them was crucified (ἐσταυρώθη)."

Is this referring to Jesus? Getting crucified in either Sodom or Egypt?

King James has "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

But all modern versions change this to "their Lord was crucified." Whose Lord? And what crucifixion is this supposed to be?

Revelation 11:1-14 is an allusion to Zechariah 4. But nothing there says anything about "Sodom and Egypt where the Lord of them was crucified."

Here is the Greek interlinear:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/11.htm
Last edited by Blood on Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is going on in Revelation 11:8? Lord crucified in E

Post by Peter Kirby » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:10 pm

It's a good question. Commentaries say that "spiritually Sodom and Egypt" is meant to refer to Jerusalem, but it doesn't have to be taken that way.
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Blood
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Re: What is going on in Revelation 11:8? Lord crucified in E

Post by Blood » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:23 pm

Is Jerusalem referred to as "the spiritual" Sodom and Egypt anywhere else? And why Sodom and Egypt?

It's fascinating that modern translations take "the Lord of them" to mean THEIR Lord was crucified. The Egyptians' Lord was crucified? Clearly, modern interpreters don't think "the spiritual Sodom and Egypt" can refer to Jerusalem; otherwise, they would have no problem translating it as OUR Lord.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp

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Re: What is going on in Revelation 11:8? Lord crucified in E

Post by dewitness » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:15 pm

Blood wrote:Is Jerusalem referred to as "the spiritual" Sodom and Egypt anywhere else? And why Sodom and Egypt?

It's fascinating that modern translations take "the Lord of them" to mean THEIR Lord was crucified. The Egyptians' Lord was crucified? Clearly, modern interpreters don't think "the spiritual Sodom and Egypt" can refer to Jerusalem; otherwise, they would have no problem translating it as OUR Lord.
The passage includes both Sodom and Egypt, not just Egypt.
It may refer to Jerusalem

Jeremiah 23:14 KJV
I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery , and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers , that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

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Re: What is going on in Revelation 11:8? Lord crucified in E

Post by Blood » Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:57 am

James Tabor has a blog positing that "where their/our Lord was crucified" is one of many interpolations into an originally exclusively Jewish text.

http://jamestabor.com/2013/10/13/can-a- ... recovered/
The implications of this simple textual examination are quite profound. First, it appears that one can fairly easily recover a pre-Christian version of this text, more or less, with very little change to the underlying text itself. What this would then allow is a re-reading of the book as a whole, with its references to the “Beast,” the “False Prophet,” and “Babylon” in a pre-70 CE setting. Scholars have most often applied the basic setting of the book to the reigns of the Roman emperors Nero and Domitian, with several stages of redaction in the period from 68 to 100 CE. However, since Rev 11:15 appears to be a clear reference to the city of Jerusalem, not Rome, as “Sodom and Egypt,” an entirely different line of interpretation opens up. The perspective of the authors of this primitive Ur-text of the Apocalypse is a radical disenfranchisement from the authority structures of pre-70 CE Roman destruction Jerusalem, whom they consider agents of the “Beast.” Further, the martyrs in this Ur-text are the “two witnesses,” whose slain bodies are left in the streets of Jerusalem, not Jesus the crucified messiah.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp

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Re: What is going on in Revelation 11:8? Lord crucified in E

Post by Tommsky » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:45 am

I went on a minibus tour of the West Bank in 2007 and the guide pointed out a likely location for Sodom. I regret that I didn't spend the night there.

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Re: What is going on in Revelation 11:8? Lord crucified in E

Post by Bernard Muller » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:22 pm

Spiritual Sodom and Egypt most likely refers to Rome (the great city). And the Lord crucified is God himself, figuratively wounded because of the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem and the killing/enslavement of many Jews (by the Romans).
Rev 11:8 is part of an entirely Jewish apocalypse written soon after 70 CE, but pretended redacted earlier during Galba's short rule. That apocalypse was Christianized through additions (notably the seven letters) during Domitian's rule.
I got some scholarly support for that and I have a webpage explaining the whole thing:
http://historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html
Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is going on in Revelation 11:8? Lord crucified in E

Post by dewitness » Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:11 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:Spiritual Sodom and Egypt most likely refers to Rome. And the Lord crucified is God himself, figuratively wounded because of the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem and the killing/enslavement of many Jews (by the Romans).
Rev 11:8 is part of an entirely Jewish apocalypse written soon after 70 CE, but composed earlier during Galba's short rule. That apocalypse was Christianized through additions (notably the seven letters) during Domitian's rule.
I got some scholarly support for that and I have a webpage explaining the whole thing:
http://historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html
Cordially, Bernard

Spiritual Sodom and Egypt where Jesus was crucified most likely refers to Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:8 KJV
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified .
Mark 10:33 KJV

Saying, Behold , we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles
Jerusalem is referred to as Sodom by the prophet Jeremiah.
Jeremiah 23:14 KJV

I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery , and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers , that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

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Re: What is going on in Revelation 11:8? Lord crucified in E

Post by Bernard Muller » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:04 pm

At Rev 11:2, Jerusalem is referred as "the holy city", not "the great city".
Cordially, Bernard
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dewitness
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Re: What is going on in Revelation 11:8? Lord crucified in E

Post by dewitness » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:35 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:At Rev 11:2, Jerusalem is referred as "the holy city", not "the great city".
Cordially, Bernard
At Rev. 11.8 Jerusalem is the great city.
Jerusalem is the great city where Jesus was crucified--Not Rome.

The passage is self-explanatory.

Revelation 11:8 NIV
Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
In the Canon Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem.

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