Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 7468
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:34 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:32 pm
So you are saying that before century IV the name ΙΣ was read as Ish in our extant manuscripts.
No I am saying that. I am merely saying that Justin could read the MSS in that way. Presumably Clement too.
I agree with this!

But what did the (authors and) scribes who penned the letters ΙΣ think it meant? (Fair warning: if you say or imply Ish I will ask you what you think they thought ΘΣ meant.)
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 12063
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:38 pm

Whenever you ask someone to speculate on something, there is a likelihood they will be wrong. So with that said I am pretty sure that it is possible that in adoptionist circles Jesus before baptism and once the god left him before crucifixion might have been written without nomen sacrum i.e. as an ordinary Joshua i.e. Ιησοῦς. That's my speculation. I suspect early MSS would reflect a fully human Ιησοῦς and distinguish divinized Jesus with the nomen sacrum. But that's the manuscripts produced by adoptionist and this is pure speculation. There are no MSS to back this up. It's just a hunch. Just a theory.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 7468
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:45 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:13 pm
I have given it above and elsewhere on the forum. It was based on Daniel 9:26. ישר was the original, but the "messiah will be cut off". The end of resh is cut off, leaving vav and thus creating ישו, yeshu the human. This is where Separationism came from.

The adherents would know about this spelling trickery, but Irenaeus would have take it literally.
Okay, thanks.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

User avatar
Joseph D. L.
Posts: 994
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by Joseph D. L. » Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:15 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:45 pm
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:13 pm
I have given it above and elsewhere on the forum. It was based on Daniel 9:26. ישר was the original, but the "messiah will be cut off". The end of resh is cut off, leaving vav and thus creating ישו, yeshu the human. This is where Separationism came from.

The adherents would know about this spelling trickery, but Irenaeus would have take it literally.
Okay, thanks.
I should have prefaced that with "I think... "

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 7468
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:19 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:15 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:45 pm
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:13 pm
I have given it above and elsewhere on the forum. It was based on Daniel 9:26. ישר was the original, but the "messiah will be cut off". The end of resh is cut off, leaving vav and thus creating ישו, yeshu the human. This is where Separationism came from.

The adherents would know about this spelling trickery, but Irenaeus would have take it literally.
Okay, thanks.
I should have prefaced that with "I think... "
It is an interesting concept.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

User avatar
Joseph D. L.
Posts: 994
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by Joseph D. L. » Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:47 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:19 am
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:15 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:45 pm
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:13 pm
I have given it above and elsewhere on the forum. It was based on Daniel 9:26. ישר was the original, but the "messiah will be cut off". The end of resh is cut off, leaving vav and thus creating ישו, yeshu the human. This is where Separationism came from.

The adherents would know about this spelling trickery, but Irenaeus would have take it literally.
Okay, thanks.
I should have prefaced that with "I think... "
It is an interesting concept.
Thank you. Throw enough things at the wall and eventually something will break through. lol

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 12063
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:01 am

I think I have a new theory for why the nomen sacrum developed. It requires much less reliance on 'hocus pocus' (surprisingly) - unlike Hurtado's explanation.
ἰς τὸ τέλος· ψαλμὸς τῷ Δαυείδ. (Psalm 18:1).
Εἰς τὸ τέλος = 'to the end'

I think εἰς here = ἐν + ς (early form ἐνς) but variant forms were ἐς and occasionally ἰς. In order to avoid confusion the nomen sacrum was born. https://www.academia.edu/4798038/The_Al ... n-Soininen_ According to my theory ἰς must have been a common enough variant of εἰς that it might have posed difficulties for the 'name above all names' in early Christianity.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 12063
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:06 am

Compounding the confusion is the appearance of ἲς as a form of ἴσος especially in Homeric Greek:

ἀλλ' ἦ τοι σφέας κεῖθεν ἀπώσατο ἲς ἀνέμοιο (Homer, Odyssey 13.276)

I don't have time to go through all of these right now but here they are unchecked:

Homer, Iliad, Book 23 Line 823 (23.823) edition
παυσαμένους ἐκέλευσαν ἀέθλια ἶσʼ ἀνελέσθαι.

Homer, Odyssey, Book 21 Line 130 (21.130) edition
τοῖς δʼ αὖτις μετέειφʼ ἱερὴ ἲς Τηλεμάχοιο·

Homer, Odyssey, Book 18 Line 405 (18.405) edition
τοῖσι δὲ καὶ μετέειφʼ ἱερὴ ἲς Τηλεμάχοιο

Homer, Odyssey, Book 18 Line 60 (18.60) edition
τοῖς δʼ αὖτις μετέειφʼ ἱερὴ ἲς Τηλεμάχοιο·

Homer, Iliad, Book 23 Line 736 (23.736) edition
νίκη δʼ ἀμφοτέροισιν· ἀέθλια δʼ ἶσʼ ἀνελόντες

Homer, Odyssey, Book 9 Line 71 (9.71) edition
τριχθά τε καὶ τετραχθὰ διέσχισεν ἲς ἀνέμοιο.

Homer, Odyssey, Book 16 Line 476 (16.476) edition
ὣς φάτο, μείδησεν δʼ ἱερὴ ἲς Τηλεμάχοιο

Homer, Odyssey, Book 21 Line 283 (21.283) edition
ἴς, οἵη πάρος ἔσκεν ἐνὶ γναμπτοῖσι μέλεσσιν,

Homer, Odyssey, Book 19 Line 186 (19.186) edition
καὶ γὰρ τὸν Κρήτηνδε κατήγαγεν ἲς ἀνέμοιο,

Homer, Iliad, Book 12 Line 320 (12.320) edition
οἶνόν τʼ ἔξαιτον μελιηδέα· ἀλλʼ ἄρα καὶ ἲς

Homer, Odyssey, Book 12 Line 175 (12.175) edition
αἶψα δʼ ἰαίνετο κηρός, ἐπεὶ κέλετο μεγάλη ἲς

Homer, Odyssey, Book 22 Line 354 (22.354) edition
ὣς φάτο, τοῦ δʼ ἤκουσʼ ἱερὴ ἲς Τηλεμάχοιο,

Homer, Odyssey, Book 13 Line 276 (13.276) edition
ἀλλʼ ἦ τοι σφέας κεῖθεν ἀπώσατο ἲς ἀνέμοιο

Homer, Iliad, Book 5 Line 441 (5.441) edition
ἶσʼ ἔθελε φρονέειν, ἐπεὶ οὔ ποτε φῦλον ὁμοῖον

Homer, Iliad, Book 11 Line 668 (11.668) edition
αὐτοί τε κτεινώμεθʼ ἐπισχερώ; οὐ γὰρ ἐμὴ ἲς

Homer, Iliad, Book 17 Line 739 (17.739) edition
ἐν σέλαϊ μεγάλῳ· τὸ δʼ ἐπιβρέμει ἲς ἀνέμοιο.

Homer, Odyssey, Book 18 Line 3 (18.3) edition
ἀζηχὲς φαγέμεν καὶ πιέμεν· οὐδέ οἱ ἦν ἲς

Homer, Odyssey, Book 2 Line 409 (2.409) edition
τοῖσι δὲ καὶ μετέειφʼ ἱερὴ ἲς Τηλεμάχοιο·

Homer, Odyssey, Book 21 Line 101 (21.101) edition
τοῖσι δὲ καὶ μετέειφʼ ἱερὴ ἲς Τηλεμάχοιο·

Homer, Iliad, Book 23 Line 720 (23.720) edition
οὔτʼ Αἴας δύνατο, κρατερὴ δʼ ἔχεν ἲς Ὀδυσῆος.

Homer, Iliad, Book 21 Line 356 (21.356) edition
καίετο δʼ ἲς ποταμοῖο ἔπος τʼ ἔφατʼ ἔκ τʼ ὀνόμαζεν·

Homer, Iliad, Book 15 Line 383 (15.383) edition
ἲς ἀνέμου· ἣ γάρ τε μάλιστά γε κύματʼ ὀφέλλει·

Homer, Odyssey, Book 11 Line 393 (11.393) edition
ἀλλʼ οὐ γάρ οἱ ἔτʼ ἦν ἲς ἔμπεδος οὐδέ τι κῖκυς,
Last edited by Secret Alias on Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 12063
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:26 am

I've always thought there might be a mystical interest in seeing 'ish' go back to ἴσος given the Genesis creation myth but I may be way off base.

First and second declension of ῐ̓́σος

Number Singular Dual Plural
Case/Gender Masculine Feminine Neuter Masculine Feminine Neuter Masculine Feminine Neuter
Nominative ῐ̓́σος
ísos ῐ̓́ση
ísē ῐ̓́σον
íson ῐ̓́σω
ísō ῐ̓́σᾱ
ísā ῐ̓́σω
ísō ῐ̓́σοι
ísoi ῐ̓́σαι
ísai ῐ̓́σᾰ
ísa
Genitive ῐ̓́σου
ísou ῐ̓́σης
ísēs ῐ̓́σου
ísou ῐ̓́σοιν
ísoin ῐ̓́σαιν
ísain ῐ̓́σοιν
ísoin ῐ̓́σων
ísōn ῐ̓́σων
ísōn ῐ̓́σων
ísōn
Dative ῐ̓́σῳ
ísōi ῐ̓́σῃ
ísēi ῐ̓́σῳ
ísōi ῐ̓́σοιν
ísoin ῐ̓́σαιν
ísain ῐ̓́σοιν
ísoin ῐ̓́σοις
ísois ῐ̓́σαις
ísais ῐ̓́σοις
ísois
Accusative ῐ̓́σον
íson ῐ̓́σην
ísēn ῐ̓́σον
íson ῐ̓́σω
ísō ῐ̓́σᾱ
ísā ῐ̓́σω
ísō ῐ̓́σους
ísous ῐ̓́σᾱς
ísās ῐ̓́σᾰ
ísa
Vocative ῐ̓́σε
íse ῐ̓́ση
ísē ῐ̓́σον
íson ῐ̓́σω
ísō ῐ̓́σᾱ
ísā ῐ̓́σω
ísō ῐ̓́σοι
ísoi ῐ̓́σαι
ísai ῐ̓́σᾰ
ísa

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%B ... E%BF%CF%82
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 7468
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:37 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:01 am
ἰς τὸ τέλος· ψαλμὸς τῷ Δαυείδ. (Psalm 18:1).
Εἰς τὸ τέλος = 'to the end'

I think εἰς here = ἐν + ς (early form ἐνς) but variant forms were ἐς and occasionally ἰς.
Which manuscripts of Psalm 18 have ἰς for εἰς? Or, at least, what is your source for ἰς leading off Psalm 18.1 OG? I have seen ἐς for εἰς plenty of times, but ἰς for εἰς is new to me.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

Post Reply