Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:42 am

And looking at the text of Marcion and Marcellus of Ancyra it is obvious what the 'name above all names' Jesus Christ receives is - it is ΙΣ. Even though no surviving text reflects this, it is obvious that the thing 'Jesus Christ' is being compared to throughout - i.e. the heavenly man - has the 'name above all names' which is man. So, this is what I'd expect to have seen in a second century canon:
Τοῦτο φρονεῖτε ἐν ὑμῖν ὃ καὶ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ Ὃς ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών ἐν ὁμοιώματι IY γενόμενος καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ΙΣ ἐταπείνωσεν ἑαυτὸν γενόμενος ὑπήκοος μέχρι θανάτου θανάτου δὲ σταυροῦ Διὸ καὶ ὁ Θεὸς αὐτὸν ὑπερύψωσεν καὶ ἐχαρίσατο αὐτῷ τὸ ὄνομα τὸ ὑπὲρ πᾶν ὄνομα ἵνα ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ πᾶν γόνυ κάμψῃ ἐπουρανίων καὶ ἐπιγείων καὶ καταχθονίων καὶ πᾶσα γλῶσσα ἐξομολογήσηται ὅτι ΚΥΡΙΟΣ ΙΗΣΟΥΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ εἰς δόξαν Θεοῦ
or perhaps given the reporting of various Marcionite sources (and Irenaeus) it is possible (just to throw it out there):
Τοῦτο φρονεῖτε ἐν ὑμῖν ὃ καὶ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ Ὃς ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών ἐν ὁμοιώματι IΣY γενόμενος καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ΙΣ ἐταπείνωσεν ἑαυτὸν γενόμενος ὑπήκοος μέχρι θανάτου θανάτου δὲ σταυροῦ Διὸ καὶ ὁ Θεὸς αὐτὸν ὑπερύψωσεν καὶ ἐχαρίσατο αὐτῷ τὸ ὄνομα τὸ ὑπὲρ πᾶν ὄνομα ἵνα ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ πᾶν γόνυ κάμψῃ ἐπουρανίων καὶ ἐπιγείων καὶ καταχθονίων καὶ πᾶσα γλῶσσα ἐξομολογήσηται ὅτι ΚΥΡΙΟΣ ΙΗΣΟΥΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ εἰς δόξαν Θεοῦ
This way the not naming what the 'name above all names' is makes sense. You just needed to look and the page and you knew.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:31 am

The reason other nomina sacra were created is because it exposed the adoptionist roots of Christianity.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:26 am

Some color from the Dialogue:
And Trypho said, "We have heard what you think of these matters. Resume the discourse where you left off, and bring it to an end. For some of it appears to me to be paradoxical, and wholly incapable of proof. For when you say that this Christ existed as God before the ages, then that He submitted to be born and become man (εἶτα καὶ γεννηθῆναι ἄνθρωπον γενόμενον ὑπομεῖναι), yet that He is not man of man (οὐκ ἄνθρωπος ἐξ ἀνθρώπου), this appears to me to be not merely paradoxical, but also foolish."

And I replied to this, "I know that the statement does appear to be paradoxical, especially to those of your race, who are ever unwilling to understand or to perform the[requirements] of God, but[ready to perform] those of your teachers, as God Himself declares. Now assuredly, Trypho," I continued,"[the proof] that this man is the Christ of God does not fail, though I be unable to prove that He existed formerly as Son of the Maker of all things, being God, and was born a man by the Virgin. But since I have certainly proved that this man is the Christ of God, whoever He be, even if I do not prove that He pre-existed, and submitted to be born a man of like passions with us, having a body, according to the Father's will; in this last matter alone is it just to say that I have erred, and not to deny that He is the Christ, though it should appear that He was born man of men, and[nothing more] is proved[than this], that He has become Christ by election. For there are some, my friends," I said, "of our race, who admit that He is Christ, while holding Him to be man of men (ἄνθρωπον δὲ ἐξ ἀνθρώπων γενόμενον ἀποφαινόμενοι); with whom I do not agree, nor would I, even though most of those who have[now] the same opinions as myself should say so; since we were enjoined by Christ Himself to put no faith in human doctrines, but in those proclaimed by the blessed prophets and taught by Himself."

And Trypho said, "Those who affirm him to have been a man (οἱ λέγοντες ἄνθρωπον γεγονέναι αὐτὸν), and to have been anointed by election, and then to have become Christ, appear to me to speak more plausibly than you who hold those opinions which you express. For we all expect that Christ will be a man of men (ἄνθρωπον ἐξ ἀνθρώπων), and that Elijah when he comes will anoint him. But if this man appear to be Christ, he must certainly be known as man of men ) ἄνθρωπον μὲν ἐξ ἀνθρώπων); but from the circumstance that Elijah has not yet come, I infer that this man is not He[the Christ]." [ibid 48 - 49]
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:52 am

From Epiphanius's account of the Colorbasians:
For this Colorbasus too has come to bring us a great, absurd deceit. He has made up a name for us, “Man,” and given it to the incomprehensible, invisible, holy God, the Father of all. This to combine with his own imposture the saying in which the Savior calls himself Son of Man, and to divert the minds of those who make use of it from Christ’s trustworthy and perfectly clear confession about himself to an impossibility, and to the nonsense < of their inquiries about a non-existent ogdoad, as though it existed in the heavens >.
2,5 For suppose we grant that, as this pathetic Colorbasus says, Christ called himself Son of Man because some Father on high of his is named “Man,” and not because of the flesh he took from a virgin womb, that is from St. Mary, when he was conceived by the Holy Spirit. (6) What would he say about the thing the same Jesus Christ our Lord said when he told the Jews, “But now ye seek to kill me, a man that has told you the truth, which I heard of my Father?”8 (7) And here he did not say, “the man, my Father” but, to confess the Father, indicated that he is God of all; but of himself, because he had truly become man, he said that he was man. (8) The apostles too—so that the truth may be established in every way and the origin of the names which are ascribed to the Lord may be known—say, “Jesus, a man approved among you by signs and wonders,”9 and so on.
2,9 What can you say to this, you most pathetic of all people—since you have come from on high bringing us new names, and you take pride in having dared to attach the name, “Man,” to the Lord of all and Father of all himself, as though the Lord is called Son of Man because Man is his Father’s name? (10) Find us some other term to fit the Father, < corresponding with > “man approved!” But you never could! Even though “man” also means “male,” and we call a male a “man” to distinguish him from a woman, you can still make nothing out of this either. (11) No one can be termed male without certain features and members, hidden and visible. We call a woman “man” too, but not “male”; thus we say both ὁ ἄνθρωπος and ἡ ἄνθρωπος. (12) But when we distinguish sex we call the feminine specifi cally “woman,” but the masculine “male,” for this is the distinction between the masculine and feminine sex, the words “male” and “woman.” But both the male and the woman are called “man” synonymously
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by Secret Alias » Thu May 14, 2020 10:04 am

A possible reflection of the nomen sacrum = man:
Εἷς γὰρ Θεός εἷς καὶ μεσίτης Θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων ἄνθρωπος (ΙΣ?) Χριστὸς (ΧΣ) Ἰησοῦς (ΙΣ).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

lsayre
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Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by lsayre » Thu May 14, 2020 10:15 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 10:04 am
A possible reflection of the nomen sacrum = man:
Εἷς γὰρ Θεός εἷς καὶ μεσίτης Θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων ἄνθρωπος (ΙΣ?) Χριστὸς (ΧΣ) Ἰησοῦς (ΙΣ).
What is the source for this?

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Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by Secret Alias » Thu May 14, 2020 11:16 am

Sorry. 1 Tim 1:25 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus"
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

lsayre
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Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by lsayre » Thu May 14, 2020 11:40 am

Is there a simple yet respectable online Koine to English translator that can handle anything from words, to sentences, to paragraphs (and beyond)?

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Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by Secret Alias » Thu May 14, 2020 11:53 am

not that I know of. Only Latin.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Ish(u), Ye(ho)shua, and the nomina sacra.

Post by DCHindley » Sat May 16, 2020 6:01 am

lsayre wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 11:40 am
Is there a simple yet respectable online Koine to English translator that can handle anything from words, to sentences, to paragraphs (and beyond)?
The problem is that Ancient Greek, in modern editions, contains all sorts of accent marks and umpteen arcane and seldom used fonts that make OCR machine reading very difficult.

You might consider an "Interlinear" translation (Greek words as in text, with an English gloss directly under each word). Some are better than others. Avoid the ones put out by Fundamentalist and conservative Evangelical presses (interlinear English text will be whatever is in the KJV or NIV) but find one that uses a "concordant" type translation (the English is a gloss that reflects the verbal form or case). There are also free ones available online, as they were all the rage in the 19th century as an alternative way to learn Greek (in conjunction with a grammar book), so they are out of copyright. That also means that the texts are images and not Unicode.

Some folks prefer something called Interlinear Scripture Analyzer, which can be downloaded here:
https://www.scripture4all.org/download/bas_vs_pro.html

This one only has the Greek NT, and for the OT, Hebrew from the Leningrad Codex. It does not have a Greek translation of Judaean scriptures.

You can also try the Greek translation of Judaean scriptures (LXX & OG) from a couple of Orthodox sources (I happen to have the Apostolic Bible version by VanderPool). It is, unfortunately, not in Unicode format.

Of course, if you are made of money, you can buy Accordance or Logos bible study software tools.

DCH

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