Ascension of Isaiah places the Sheol in Outer Space and the Hell under Earth

[Giuseppe]

It is theologically an embarrassment even more great than the baptism by John for the forgivement of the SINS.

[Giuseppe]

Culianu's finding allows me to correct Carrier when he very stupidely wrote:

So again Doherty is right: Jesus was to descend to the *firmament*, then Sheol, *not* earth. Earth is never mentioned here (the phrase [that world] refers to Sheol, or at most the whole sphere below the moon, not earth specifically—see below). One might say that "technically" Jesus had to pass earth to get to Sheol, but that does not mean he stopped on earth, and it is certainly not said here that he did or was even supposed to; he is told to go to the firmament and then Sheol. Period. Inanna descends from heaven to the underworld, skipping earth right by. She is incarnated in hell, killed, crucified, raised from the dead (in hell) with the water and food of life after three days, then ascends back to heaven, again skipping earth. This is pretty standard stuff in ancient cosmology and theology.

http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/jesuspuzzle/ ... uller2.htm

No, dear Richard Carrier, I can't allow a priori the possibility "that "technically" Jesus had to pass earth to get to Sheol", for the simple reason that the Sheol was placed above the earth insofar the Hell/Haguel was placed under the earth.

[Giuseppe]

Carrier repeats the identical Culianu's error when he writes:

Wrong again. "That world" refers to the whole region (see below) and in particular Sheol (standard forward pronoun). Earth specifically is never mentioned, so it cannot possibly be the object of any pronoun here. Likewise, the descent to Sheol is not "after" death but rather *is* death—it indicates that Jesus is to die, which *entails* descending to Sheol.

No, contra Carrier, the descent to Sheol is "after" death. At the gates of the Sheol, that is in Outer Space.

[GakuseiDon]

I thought that might be the case. So, the historicist interpolator, having the original Ascension of Isaiah in his hands, decided to rearrange the cosmology of his universe for him and the other historicist Christians, rather than remove the words about "descent" into Sheol from that one text?

precisely. Note the great contradiction - and a real dilemma even for modern Christians - raised by the so-called descent of Jesus into Hell: if Jesus descended into Hell - note: Hell, meant as a place of torture - was he a sinner, since only the sinners descent to Hell? Was it true or false?

Well, that brought forth a range of possible responses from me. My favorite one was "Giuseppe, you've jumped the shark. And you were already riding a shark." But I'm trying so hard to remove sarcasm from my posts.

Still, as often happens, you make me think. The idea of a descent into Sheol, the plundering of the angel of death and the rescuing of souls just after crucifixion must come from somewhere. The location of the souls, whether under the earth or in the sky (both possible locations in ancient beliefs), is independent of that. So I will read through the links that Ben provided (thanks again Ben!) and have a think.

[Giuseppe]

The location of Sheol, whether under the earth or in the sky (both possible locations in ancient beliefs), is independent of that.

More precisely, the location of Sheol is not independent from the location of Hell of evil sinners. The reasons Jesus has to descend in Sheol and not to Haguel are two:

• From Sheol one can ascend, differently from Haguel

• The souls in Sheol deserved redemption, differently from the souls in Haguel

The intrinsic opposition between Sheol and Haguel requires a geographical opposition, also. The earth divides these two realms of dead.

The liberation from Haguel was made more impossible if it was placed under earth. The liberation from Sheol was made more possible if it was placed above the earth.

[Ben C. Smith]

Thanks Ben, that is extremely helpful!

No problem.

[GakuseiDon]

The intrinsic opposition between Sheol and Haguel requires a geographical opposition, also. The earth divides these two realms of dead.

The liberation from Haguel was made more impossible if it was placed under earth. The liberation from Sheol was made more possible if it was placed above the earth.

That's actually a really good point, and led me to start me thinking about what is behind the descent of the Beloved in the Ascension of Isaiah. Giuseppe, once again you've justified the use of "savant" in your title!

In my own 'head canon', one of the huge driving forces of the evolution of religion is the emergence of philosophies that gain widespread agreement. That's happened at least twice in the West: in the 1st C BCE, with the adoption of Greek philosophy as the measure of truth, and then again in the 19th C CE, with the adoption of science as the measure. Religions changed to measure up, with the effect that it was found that Christianity was consistent with Platonism and modern science all along!

IIUC, in Jewish thought, Sheol was originally perceived to be the grave. People died, and if their souls went anywhere, it was in the grave under the earth where they just slept. Pagans had their own ideas, some similar. Eventually this was influenced by the Greek idea that spirits floated free in the air, so that for some philosophers, 'Hades' existed in the air around us. The 'Hell' section of the afterlife was deep underground, and this is where some spirits were imprisoned to be tortured.

So, who went into the air into Hades, and who went underground to Hell? Spirits were made of air and fire without earth or water, so naturally floated. Carnal desires were earthly things, and so 'weighed down' spirits, which is why those spirits which hung around graveyards and possessed people were generally malevolent. Evil people were tortured in Hell. But those floating spirits who were generally okay, without the ability to ascend to heaven, remained in the air. They were trapped there.

So there really is a separation of Sheol and Haguel in that case: Sheol in the air, consisting of good spirits made of air and fire floating around; and Haguel underground, consisting of spirits with earthly elements to them.

How does this connect to the Ascension of Isaiah?

In the extant Ethiopic version:

16. And when He hath plundered the angel of death, He will ascend on the third day, [and he will remain in that world five hundred and forty-five days].

17. And then many of the righteous will ascend with Him, whose spirits do not receive their garments till the Lord Christ ascend and they ascend with Him.

18. Then indeed they will receive their [garments and] thrones and crowns, when He has ascended into the seventh heaven."

In my hypothetical original (non-extant) mythicist version: the Beloved is crucified by Satan in the firmament, then descends into the air, where those righteous spirits are floating around, as a rescue mission. He beats up the angel of death and frees those spirits, to allow them to ascend with him. The end!

Not that this resolves the issues around the AoI; for example all the extant versions have the Beloved on earth, talks about the Beloved being in the form of a man, etc. In the end I'm just rewriting it to get it to say what I want it to say.

But the idea that 'Sheol' and 'Haguel' had to have a physical separation made me think about this in terms of the evolution of ancient thought, and the implications of the change of the location of Sheol from the grave to the air. Thanks Giuseppe!

[Giuseppe]

But the idea that 'Sheol' and 'Haguel' had to have a physical separation made me think about this in terms of the evolution of ancient thought, and the implications of the change of the location of Sheol from the grave to the air. Thanks Giuseppe!

Thank you for this. I also like your joke about the shark. I confess that, by only reading it, I have felt a sound nostalgia for the sea, in quarantine times.

[Giuseppe]

About the date of the transposition of Sheol from under earth to above earth, prof Culianu is explicit:

In I° century CE, the deplacement of the Haes in the air, in the sub-lunar zone or in the heaven makes it impossible the descent [of the Savior] in the dephts of the earth.

The prof notes in this sense the great utility of the Psalm 23:7-10:

7 Lift up your gates, O ye princes, and be ye lifted up, O eternal gates: and the King of Glory shall enter in.
8 Who is this King of Glory? the Lord who is strong and mighty: the Lord mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your gates, O ye princes, and be ye lifted up, O eternal gates: and the King of Glory shall enter in.
10 Who is this King of Glory? the Lord of hosts, he is the King of Glory.

These Gates can be opened. Therefore these Gates are not the Gates of a Hell under earth, from which it is impossible to ascend.

These Gates can only be (interpreted by early Christians as) the Gates of the Sheol in Outer Space.

I wonder about the singular "coincidence" of the term "King of Glory" and the term "Lord of Glory" of the mythicist passage of 1 Corinthians 2:8.

[Giuseppe]

Reading again verses 16-17:

16. And when He hath plundered the angel of death, He will ascend on the third day, [and he will remain in that world five hundred and forty-five days].
17. And then many of the righteous will ascend with Him, whose spirits do not receive their garments till the Lord Christ ascend and they ascend with Him.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... nsion.html

...I think that now, in the light of my new knowledge about the earth being between Sheol and Haguel, it is not even sure that the construct:

[and he will remain in that world five hundred and forty-five days]

…was original in the primitive text. It assumes that Jesus has to remain in "that world" after the ascension from Sheol "the third day," but then the Sheol is under the earth and "that world" is the earth alone, with the Risen Christ preaching in it for a short interval.

Removing the historicist interpolation, the text becomes ipso facto more clear:

16. And when He hath plundered the angel of death, He will ascend on the third day,
17. And then many of the righteous will ascend with Him, whose spirits do not receive their garments till the Lord Christ ascend and they ascend with Him.

The ascension of the "righteous" from Sheol is direct consequence of the ascension/resurrection of Jesus from Sheol. The interpolation breaks bluntly the causal link between the two ascensions/resurrections.

The interpolator believed that Jesus was ascended from a Sheol placed under earth. Hence he was obliged to introduce an earthly interval to allow the post-Resurrection appearances (accordingly to Gospels).