Was Simon Magus CRUCIFIED in heaven ?

[Giuseppe]

A version of Dionysus, Orpheus Bakkikos, was crucified in Outer Space:



Note the Seven Planetary Archons above the crucified.

[Joseph D. L.]

'Many'? Off-hand, I can only think of Osiris, and even then it was an analogy describing the actions of cosmic forces and not literal. Which other ones were dismembered in outer space?

Dionysus is the most obvious. He was dismembered in much the same way Osiris was. His pieces are later collected and put into a cauldron which resurrects him.

Dismembered in the heavens, though?

That's how Proclus interpreted it. That Dionysus and Attis died and their essence fell into the material realm and scattered throughout it, being impeded into the bodies of man.

[Joseph D. L.]

A version of Dionysus, Orpheus Bakkikos, was crucified in Outer Space:



Note the Seven Planetary Archons above the crucified.

It's not "outer space", Giuseppe. It's the celestial realm. They didn't have an idea of outer space. Even Carrier's calling it that is ignorant. The seven stars, not archons, are the planets, sun and moon, and appears in numerous other numismatic iconography of Urania.

[Joseph D. L.]

Ignoring your anti-Carrier hostility, I can confirm that, just during the turn of the era, there is enormous (ENORMOUS!!!) evidence of a dislocation of Hades from netherworld to lower heavens. In some cases, a total dislocation. In many cases, a partial dislocation. In virtue of the same process, Chthonic ("subterranean") deities were trasposed in heaven and became even solar deities (Attis is a clear example).
In some cases, both sheol for Justs and Hell for Sinners were transposed in heaven. In other cases, the Hell remained under earth while the Sheol of the Righteous was placed in the lower heaven (always under the moon).

Hence, I can do this claim with a good degree of certainty:

If a hallucinator had lived during the turn of the era, and he was the first "to witness" the crucifixion of a deity, then he would have placed it in Outer Space more probably than on earth or under earth.

It is on the historicists the onus probandi for the contrary.

You are not substantiating any of this with primary sources. You are only repeating Carrier's error of taking what Plutarch said and making it universal.

Even in the Naassene Hymn to Attis, it's clear that he dies AND THEN becomes the shepherd of the shining stars, meaning he died on Earth and was spirited up to the celestial plane, like Castor and Pollux.

[Giuseppe]

Hence, I can do this claim with a good degree of certainty:

If a hallucinator had lived during the turn of the era, and he was the first "to witness" the crucifixion of a deity, then he would have placed it in Outer Space more probably than on earth or under earth.

It is on the historicists the onus probandi for the contrary.

You are not substantiating any of this with primary sources.

The primary sources are listed here, in this academic article.

They are too many to do copy and paste, sorry.

Hence my claim remains all.

If you imagined a crucifixion of a god during the turn of the era, then very probably you placed it in Outer Space (=in the air).

[Giuseppe]

That's how Proclus interpreted it.

Can you give me a reference, please ? Thanks in advance.

[Giuseppe]

Note also the corollary of my claim:

if there was an old pre-christian belief of a crucifixion of Jesus, then very probably it placed Jesus on earth.

It was only during the turn of the era that people started to be disturbed by a belief in only one subterranean Hades.

[GakuseiDon]

That's how Proclus interpreted it. That Dionysus and Attis died and their essence fell into the material realm and scattered throughout it, being impeded into the bodies of man.

Thanks Joseph D. L., I'll check it out.

[Giuseppe]

Prof Culianu talks about

• Mekiltha in Ex. 15:1

• Emmek hammelek 173

• Peshiqta 151a

...where the same rabbis wrote about the celestial wars, in Outer Space, between evil and good angels.

I remember that, since even Ehrman recognizes that Jesus is an angel for Paul, then it would be 100% expected to find the defeat of an angel by hand of demons on the cross in Outer Space, too.

I would like to find these references. But I am sorry because I am not even able to find them.