Was Simon Magus CRUCIFIED in heaven ?

[Giuseppe]

I don't know if this is the source of a guy called Pseudo-Marcellus, where it should be reported that a Flying Simon Magus crashes to ground and break into four pieces:

XXXII. And already on the morrow a great multitude assembled at the Sacred Way to see him flying. And Peter came unto the place, having seen a vision (or, to see the sight), that he might convict him in this also; for when Simon entered into Rome, he amazed the multitudes by flying: but Peter that convicted him was then not yet living at Rome: which city he thus deceived by illusion, so that some were carried away by him (amazed at him).
So then this man standing on an high place beheld Peter and began to say: Peter, at this time when I am going up before all this people that behold me, I say unto thee: If thy God is able, whom the Jews put to death, and stoned you that were chosen of him, let him show that faith in him is faith in God, and let it appear at this time, if it be worthy of God. For I, ascending up, will show myself unto all this multitude, who I am. And behold when he was lifted up on high, and all beheld him raised up above all Rome and the temples thereof and the mountains, the faithful looked toward Peter. And Peter seeing the strangeness of the sight cried unto the Lord Jesus Christ: If thou suffer this man to accomplish that which he hath set about, now will all they that have believed on thee be offended, and the signs and wonders which thou hast given them through me will not be believed: hasten thy grace, O Lord, and let him fall from the height and be disabled; and let him not die but be brought to nought, and break his leg in three places. And he fell from the height and brake his leg in three places. Then every man cast stones at him and went away home, and thenceforth believed Peter.
But one of the friends of Simon came quickly out of the way (or arrived from a journey), Gemellus by name, of whom Simon had received much money, having a Greek woman to wife, and saw him that he had broken his leg, and said: O Simon, if the Power of God is broken to pieces, shall not that God whose Power thou art, himself be blinded? Gemellus therefore also ran and followed Peter, saying unto him: I also would be of them that believe on Christ. And Peter said: Is there any that grudgeth it, my brother? come thou and sit with us.
But Simon in his affliction found some to carry him by night on a bed from Rome unto Aricia; and he abode there a space, and was brought thence unto Terracina to one Castor that was banished from Rome upon an accusation of sorcery. And there he was sorely cut (Lat. by two physicians), and so Simon the angel of Satan came to his end

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... peter.html

• The garment of Jesus was divided in 4 pieces, also.

• The body of Osiris was dismembered in more pieces.

• The Black Legend of the Christians eaters of children was based on the fact that they believed that the eucharistic bread, in the form of Jesus Child, was dismembered in 4 pieces.

Hence a serious possibility is that the Simon Magus dismembered in 4 pieces during his fall from heaven could be a parody of the belief, held by rival Christians, that the Christ was dismembered by Archons in heaven.

In Outer Space.

[davidmartin]

what's all this about outer space?
i just want to know what your trying to get at, you post the same basic thing every time
what actually is it, what's the core of it?
surely the core is the key bit not the fluff around the edges?

[Giuseppe]

what's all this about outer space?
i just want to know what your trying to get at, you post the same basic thing every time
what actually is it, what's the core of it?
surely the core is the key bit not the fluff around the edges?

I have signaled a simple possibility.

Since many deities were dismembered in Outer Space, then the fact that in the legend about Simon Magus we have a

• flying deity in heaven

• with a descensional movement

• who is dismembered in 4 pieces before he touches the earth

...may be a parody against a Jesus Son of Father who:

• worked uniquely in heaven

• descended in lower heavens

• was dismembered by demons

Note that in the case of Barabbas we have already, beyond any reasonable doubt, a parody.

Peter Kirby signaled what he considered a case of Godwin's Law, about my ossession on Barabbas as anti-marcionite parody.

Pace Peter, I am not surprised to read the following words in an academic article about Barabbas:

Even with the press, communication systems, widespread literacy, and modern photography, how many of us could surely identify, say, Father Divine - or even, for that matter, Hitler ?

(p. 448)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3262275?Se ... b_contents

the answer is simple: you don't compare Jesus Christ with a Jesus Barabbas, unless you want to attack the adorers of a Jesus Son of Father who was not the Jewish Messiah.

[GakuseiDon]

Since many deities were dismembered in Outer Space...

'Many'? Off-hand, I can only think of Osiris, and even then it was an analogy describing the actions of cosmic forces and not literal. Which other ones were dismembered in outer space?

[Giuseppe]

To my knowledge, only according to some Osisis's Death was allegorical, but for the hoi polloi it was literal.

I remember Attis's Death in Outer Space, too.

Always during the turn of the era, many deities working under earth were placed in Outer Space (the idea of a Hades under earth becoming always less credible).

• Persephone, originally descended under earth into Hades, when the Hades became celestial (=in Outer Space), she became "lunar queen" (Plutarch, De facie, 27:2). And note that her presence in Hades was a form of suffering for her, not a triumph.

• Cybele, idem.

• Serapis, idem.

• Sabazios, idem.

References here.

[Joseph D. L.]

Since many deities were dismembered in Outer Space...

'Many'? Off-hand, I can only think of Osiris, and even then it was an analogy describing the actions of cosmic forces and not literal. Which other ones were dismembered in outer space?

Dionysus is the most obvious. He was dismembered in much the same way Osiris was. His pieces are later collected and put into a cauldron which resurrects him.

Attis is also another example. His castration/genital mutilation is typical of Osiris, Dionysus, and the Bull of Mithraism. All of these gods were resurrected with the moon, which emphasizes the celestial aspects of the gods (see Herodotus, Plutarch, Macrobius, Porphyry, Iamblicus, Proclus, etc.)

The spiritual significance, or symbolikos mythos, is that these gods were believed to represent the soul's incarnation into the material realm and that humans have within them a piece of these gods' essence.

This likewise applies to Christianity and Jesus. The eucharist is the prime example, but also is Paul saying that the church, though scattered across the world, is like the body of Christ, perfect and whole. A few Gnostic texts like Pistis Sophia says the spirit of Christ was rent apart when it entered the lower realm.

Giuseppe calling it "outer space" is a misappropriation, picked up by shyster Carrier, of these beliefs and does nothing to advance a better understanding of them.

In Egypt, Ta-Amen was directly below the Earth, or the innards of Geb. The Duat was the region of the stars that descended down and ascended out of the horizon, while the Imperishable Stars were the region that remained in the sky year round.

The Eridanus, however, extended both to the Heavens and the Underworld. It's why Odysseus and his grew had to travel through the Gates of Helios to enter the underworld.

Shoel was always the underworld, or an area below the earth. The souls of saints and patriarchs were held in the sky, but that was not the destination of all men.

[Giuseppe]

Dr Carrier is a serious and competent scholar. He is not a shyster. Please more respect dor him.

Shoel was always the underworld, or an area below the earth. The souls of saints and patriarchs were held in the sky, but that was not the destination of all men.

you are totally wrong, here. The evidence is enormous, for Hades (and subterranean deities) being placed in Outer Space just during the turn of era.

[Joseph D. L.]

Dr Carrier is a serious and competent scholar. He is not a shyster. Please more respect dor him.

Schonfeld has my respect. Boismard has my respect. Brandon has my respect. Bultmann has my respect. Von Copenhausen has my respect. Even Price, I tip my straw hat to, because he's open to new ideas. People like Erhman and Carrier, two sides of the same coin, do not have my respect. Carrier is a fraud who stole his ideas, and personally I don't like him. He's a smug, arrogant know it all.

Shoel was always the underworld, or an area below the earth. The souls of saints and patriarchs were held in the sky, but that was not the destination of all men.

you are totally wrong, here. The evidence is enormous, for Hades (and subterranean deities) being placed in Outer Space just during the turn of era.
[/quote]

You certainly haven't provided any primary sources for this. (How can something subterranean be in outer space?)

Hades is a misnomer for the realm of Hades. Zeus ruled the Heavens, Poseidon ruled the seas and earth, while Hades ruled the underworld. The river Eridanus, a celestial river, extended to all three realms to explain how the soul journeyed from one end to the other, to the realm of Hades, to the earth, to the Elysium Fields, to the Island of the Blessed, etc. It was the byfrost bridge of Greek religion.

[Giuseppe]

Ignoring your anti-Carrier hostility, I can confirm that, just during the turn of the era, there is enormous (ENORMOUS!!!) evidence of a dislocation of Hades from netherworld to lower heavens. In some cases, a total dislocation. In many cases, a partial dislocation. In virtue of the same process, Chthonic ("subterranean") deities were trasposed in heaven and became even solar deities (Attis is a clear example).
In some cases, both sheol for Justs and Hell for Sinners were transposed in heaven. In other cases, the Hell remained under earth while the Sheol of the Righteous was placed in the lower heaven (always under the moon).

Hence, I can do this claim with a good degree of certainty:

If a hallucinator had lived during the turn of the era, and he was the first "to witness" the crucifixion of a deity, then he would have placed it in Outer Space more probably than on earth or under earth.

It is on the historicists the onus probandi for the contrary.

[GakuseiDon]

'Many'? Off-hand, I can only think of Osiris, and even then it was an analogy describing the actions of cosmic forces and not literal. Which other ones were dismembered in outer space?

Dionysus is the most obvious. He was dismembered in much the same way Osiris was. His pieces are later collected and put into a cauldron which resurrects him.

Dismembered in the heavens, though?