Peter in the Clementine Homilies Does Not Accept the Sacredness of the Pentateuch

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Secret Alias
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Re: Peter in the Clementine Homilies Does Not Accept the Sacredness of the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:56 pm

Really? No clear answer. So how did the crazy notion that the Pentateuch wasn't holy develop among Jews? There are Jewish group walking around today or any time in history who said 'You know what? I am not sure the Torah is holy'? Come on. It's your brain that doesn't allow you to think about things properly. Clearly either:

1. the crazy ideas were added later to a document which was orthodox
or
2. the orthodox took a document filled with crazy ideas and attempted to 'fix' the totality by making it seem orthodox

There can be no doubt that (2) is the correct answer.
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Re: Peter in the Clementine Homilies Does Not Accept the Sacredness of the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:57 pm

It's your brain that's the problem. Let me ask you a question. Do you think that Irenaeus and Epiphanius participated in 'the Holy Spirit'? Do you think that Irenaeus and Epiphanius SHARED in the same Holy Spirit? Did the Holy Spirit 'inform' them as to details about the Ebionites? This is the heart of the problem I think. I think for your the answer is yes, yes and yes to the three questions which is why you find it 'difficult' to answer any questions regarding the texts origins or even attempt to resolve many of the difficulties with respect to its contents.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Peter in the Clementine Homilies Does Not Accept the Sacredness of the Pentateuch

Post by John2 » Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:51 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:56 pm
Really? No clear answer. So how did the crazy notion that the Pentateuch wasn't holy develop among Jews? There are Jewish group walking around today or any time in history who said 'You know what? I am not sure the Torah is holy'? Come on. It's your brain that doesn't allow you to think about things properly. Clearly either:

1. the crazy ideas were added later to a document which was orthodox
or
2. the orthodox took a document filled with crazy ideas and attempted to 'fix' the totality by making it seem orthodox

There can be no doubt that (2) is the correct answer.

I gather from the citation you gave in the OP that whoever wrote that passage isn't saying that all of the Torah wasn't holy, only parts of it (i.e., "in the Scriptures there are some true sayings and some spurious").

And this is in keeping with the Elchasiates, who Epiphanius says influenced later Ebionites. As Origen writes in Eusebius' citation of him in EH 6.38:

Another error also arose at this time, called the heresy of the Elkesites, which was extinguished in the very beginning. Origen speaks of it in this manner in a public homily on the eighty-second Psalm: "A certain man came just now, puffed up greatly with his own ability, proclaiming that godless and impious opinion which has appeared lately in the churches, styled 'of the Elkesites.' I will show you what evil things that opinion teaches, that you may not be carried away by it. It rejects certain parts of every scripture. Again it uses portions of the Old Testament ..."



And as I said, I see later Elchasaite-influenced Ebionites as being (somewhat) similar to Reform Judaism, which is characterized on Wikepedia as "regarding Jewish Law as non-binding and the individual Jew as autonomous, and [having] a great openness to external influences and progressive values." And I think these "crazy ideas" pre-date the final redaction of the Clementines.
Last edited by John2 on Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:46 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Peter in the Clementine Homilies Does Not Accept the Sacredness of the Pentateuch

Post by John2 » Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:54 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:57 pm
It's your brain that's the problem. Let me ask you a question. Do you think that Irenaeus and Epiphanius participated in 'the Holy Spirit'? Do you think that Irenaeus and Epiphanius SHARED in the same Holy Spirit? Did the Holy Spirit 'inform' them as to details about the Ebionites? This is the heart of the problem I think. I think for your the answer is yes, yes and yes to the three questions which is why you find it 'difficult' to answer any questions regarding the texts origins or even attempt to resolve many of the difficulties with respect to its contents.

No, I just think they both had sources about the Ebionites.
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Re: Peter in the Clementine Homilies Does Not Accept the Sacredness of the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:18 pm

Won't answer the question about whether or not Irenaeus and Epiphanius partook, shared or were informed by the Holy Spirit. Wonder why you won't answer that.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Peter in the Clementine Homilies Does Not Accept the Sacredness of the Pentateuch

Post by John2 » Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:21 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:18 pm
Won't answer the question about whether or not Irenaeus and Epiphanius partook, shared or were informed by the Holy Spirit. Wonder why you won't answer that.

I did answer that, and the answer was "no."
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Re: Peter in the Clementine Homilies Does Not Accept the Sacredness of the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:52 pm

So clearly type out that you do not believe that any of the Church Fathers partook of a Holy Spirit. I don't see the answer. Can't hurt to repeat it.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Peter in the Clementine Homilies Does Not Accept the Sacredness of the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:38 am

The longer that this 'disowning' of the Church Fathers takes the more certain we can be that John2 is Steve Avery. Almost no one has anything going on right now.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Peter in the Clementine Homilies Does Not Accept the Sacredness of the Pentateuch

Post by John2 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:59 am

I've been offline since my last post and have just now seen Stephan's two responses to it. And since "no" did not suffice, then I will say that I don't believe in the Holy Spirit, and thus I don't think there is one for Irenaeus and Epiphanius (or anyone else) to have been in touch with in any way.
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Re: Peter in the Clementine Homilies Does Not Accept the Sacredness of the Pentateuch

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:28 pm

so how can Irenaeus and Epiphanius both be right about the Ebionites. How is that the best explanation of their differences?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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