Spin and the DSS

[John2]

Spin,

There are some other things I'm wondering about your point of view on the Menelaus-Wicked Priest theory. If the theory is correct, then both 2 Maccabees and the pesharim are anti-Menelaus and pro-Onias III.

So what is your timeline for the writing of these documents? Since there doesn't seem to be any reference in the pesharim to the Teacher of Righteousness having an infant son (like Onias III did) who later fled to Egypt during the time of Judas Maccabee, do you think the pesharim were written before this happened?

If so, what do you think became of the congregation that wrote the pesharim, and when do you think the pesharim were deposited in caves?

Because it discusses the Maccabee revolt, do you think 2 Maccabees was written after the pesharim? And because it is pro-Onias III and anti-Menelaus, do you think its author could have been aware of/sympathetic to/or belonged to the congregation that wrote the pesharim? Why did they write in Greek instead of Hebrew like the authors of the pesharim?

Some DSS were written after the Maccabee revolt (like the Priestly Courses, which we've discussed), so why do you think there aren't any Scrolls that mention that the Teacher of Righteousness had a son who fled to Egypt and founded a temple? Why weren't any copies of 2 Maccabees found with the Scrolls (since it is pro-Onias III)?

These are some questions that come to mind when I think about the Menelaus-Wicked Priest theory and try to understand your point of view.

[John T]

This is from wiki:

"Michael O. Wise posits that the Teacher of Righteousness was the "first messiah", a figure predating Jesus by roughly 100 years.[9] This figure - whom Wise believes was named Judah - rose to prominence during the reign of Alexander Jannaeus, and had been a priest, and confidant to the king. However, he became dissatisfied with the religious sects in Jerusalem, and in reaction, founded a "crisis cult". While amassing a following, the Teacher (and his followers) claimed he was the fulfillment of various Biblical prophecies, with an emphasis on those found in Isaiah. The Teacher was eventually killed by the religious leadership in Jerusalem, and his followers hailed him as messianic figure who had been exalted to the presence of God's throne. They then anticipated that the Teacher would return to judge the wicked and lead the righteous into a golden age, and that it would take place within the next forty years. Wise explains that dating of manuscript copies among the Dead Sea Scrolls shows that the Teacher's postmortem following drastically increased in size over several years, but that when the predicted time frame failed to live up to expectations, his following dissipated rapidly"...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teacher_of_Righteousness

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Where in the DSS can we find the prophecy that the Teacher of Righteousness will return in approximately 40 yrs after his death?
I have heard this story before but I can not verify it.

Can spin shed light on the theory that the The Teacher of Righteousness was a priest named Judah during the reign of Alexander Jannaeus (the wicked priest) 103-76 B.C.?

Respectfully,
John T

[spin]

Spin,

There are some other things I'm wondering about your point of view on the Menelaus-Wicked Priest theory. If the theory is correct, then both 2 Maccabees and the pesharim are anti-Menelaus and pro-Onias III.

So what is your timeline for the writing of these documents? Since there doesn't seem to be any reference in the pesharim to the Teacher of Righteousness having an infant son (like Onias III did) who later fled to Egypt during the time of Judas Maccabee, do you think the pesharim were written before this happened?

Abandoning Judea wipes the slate. Hence no interest in the son of Onias III. By then anyway, the pharisees were on the rise if that's what can be made of Alcimus removing the wall in the temple, so that nothing separated the priest from the people. Once Jonathan had gained power and Judas was appropriated by the Hasmoneans, there was no reason to maintain memory of Onias III. The world had changed.

If so, what do you think became of the congregation that wrote the pesharim, and when do you think the pesharim were deposited in caves?

The ToR pesharim were laid up in libraries in Jerusalem for several decades, then bundled up with all the other texts they wanted to save, and deposited at Qumran and elsewhere.

Because it discusses the Maccabee revolt, do you think 2 Maccabees was written after the pesharim? And because it is pro-Onias III and anti-Menelaus, do you think its author could have been aware of/sympathetic to/or belonged to the congregation that wrote the pesharim? Why did they write in Greek instead of Hebrew like the authors of the pesharim?

Yes, 2 Macc would have been written after the ToR pesharim, but the copy we have traces of was taken off to Africa and translated into Greek, being kept as a record of the history.

Some DSS were written after the Maccabee revolt (like the Priestly Courses, which we've discussed), so why do you think there aren't any Scrolls that mention that the Teacher of Righteousness had a son who fled to Egypt and founded a temple? Why weren't any copies of 2 Maccabees found with the Scrolls (since it is pro-Onias III)?

Most dealt with above.

These are some questions that come to mind when I think about the Menelaus-Wicked Priest theory and try to understand your point of view.

I haven't dealt with the subject for a decade, so I'm lax to think about it too much, as I'm involved in so many other things.

[pakeha]

[ . . . ]Maybe the Essene hypothesis is still dominant - but if Rachel Elior has anything to do with it - maybe change might be on the cards.....Elior deals with the Essenes about 50.40 mins into her talk to the University of Chicago Divinity School. I think the talk was last year.


"Who Wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls and Why Were They Forgotten?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLit979B60Y

Thanks for the link!
That was a most interesting lecture.

[John2]

Spin,

I appreciate your response. I'm enjoying thinking about the Scrolls from your point of view, and admire the amount of thought you have put into them.

If you get a chance, I've also been wondering if you think the Spouter/Man of Lie is a different person than the Wicked Priest, and if so, who you think he might have been.

[John2]

While it is on my mind I thought I'd resurrect this thread since there is another issue I have with spin's theory that Onias III was the Teacher of Righteousness. Other ones I mentioned earlier are:

4Q171 also mentions a "trial" of the Teacher of Righteousness:

"Interpreted, this concerns the Wicked [Priest] who [rose up against the Teacher of Righteousness] that he might put him to death [because he served the truth] and the Law, [for which reason] he laid hands upon him. But God will not abandon [him into his hand and will not let him be condemned when he is] tried. And [God] will pay him his reward by delivering him into the hand of the Violent of the nations, that they may execute upon him [the judgments of wickedness]," and:

"Interpreted, this concerns the wicked of Ephraim and Manasseh, who shall seek to lay hands on the Priest and the men of his Council at the time of trial which shall come upon them. But God will redeem them from out of their hand. And afterwards, they shall be delivered into the hand of the Violent among the nations for judgment."

And I don't see any indication that Onias III was put on trial.

"Therefore Menelaus, taking Andronicus aside, urged him to kill Onias. Andronicus came to Onias, and resorting to treachery offered him sworn pledges and gave him his right hand, and in spite of his suspicion persuaded Onias to come out from the place of sanctuary; then, with no regard for justice, he immediately put him out of the way" (2 Mac 4:34).

Also, the Teacher of Righteousness is said to have been killed along with "the men of his council":

"Interpreted, this concerns the Wicked Priest whom God delivered into the hands of his enemies because of the iniquity committed against the Teacher of Righteousness and the men of his Council" (1QpHab col. 9).

But it looks to me like only Onias III was killed in 2 Mac. 4:34.

The other issue I have is that the Wicked Priest presumably killed the Teacher of Righteousness in Jerusalem, since this is where he is said to have committed "abominable deeds" that consequently polluted the Temple. But Onias was killed "at Daphne near Antioch" (2 Mac. 4:33).

1QpHab col. 12:

And as for that which He said, Because of the blood of the city and the violence done to the land: interpreted, the city is Jerusalem, where the Wicked Priest committed abominable deeds and defiled the Temple of God. The violence done to the land: they are the cities of Judah where he robbed the poor of the possessions.

The Isaiah Pesher is similarly concerned about activities that took place in Jerusalem (if not necessarily by the Wicked Priest).

These are the Scoffers in Jerusalem who have despised the Law of the Lord and scorned the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Referring to the last days, this saying concerns the congregation of those who seek smooth things in Jerusalem.

And this is where the Micah Pesher appears to place the Teacher of Righteousness.

And what is the high place of Judah? [Is it not Jerusalem?] [Interpreted, this concerns] the Teacher of Righteousness who [expounded the Law to] his [Council] and to all who freely pledged themselves to join the elect of [God to keep the Law] in the Council of the Community; who shall be saved on the Day [of judgment]

BTW, this thread could be moved to the Jewish writings forum if it seems more fitting. I was somewhat new here at the time and didn't consider that.

[John2]

I wrote to spin (in another thread):

I think it is worth noting again (I recall talking with you about it here a few years ago) that all the pesharim were found in single copies, which is a factor for this view [that the pesharim are late].

I recall that spin had some good responses to this in another thread:

We don't have very many pesharim, so the sample is small to hope for duplicates.

And:

Nice evidence that 4QpPsa is a copy: an entire line was omitted and reinserted at Col.3 line 5.

And:

And one further thing, in col 12 line 8 [in 1QpHab] there was an omission of "wicked" (הרשע), from the phrase "wicked priest" inserted over the line above "did/performed" (מעשי), indicating that the scribe was copying the text. There are a few other reinsertions in the text, so the carbondating is not of the original text, but of a copy.

I want to look into this issue more. It still seems curious that other DSS tend to have copies but not the Habakkuk, Isaiah, Zephaniah, Nahum, Hosea and Psalms peshers.

As I poke around I see that Dimant wrote in an old article that:

Some scholars have concluded, based on the fact that the extant pesharim are all single Herodian mss with no copies or overlapping sections, that the pesharim were autographs and produced within the community at a later stage in its history (Milik 1959- 41; Cross 1980- 114–15). However, some pesharim betray a copyist’s hand (e.g., 4QpIsa 5-5a–5, which has an interlinear addition that appears to be a correction; Horgan 1979- 3–4) and therefore may not be autographs.

http://cojs.org/pesharim-_qumran-_devor ... york_1992/

And as I go down the list on Google books I see that Tso (2010) writes in a footnote:

More plausible is the argument of F.M. Cross rehearsed in James M. Charlesworth ... that all or at least most of the pesharim are autographs, based on the evidence of only single copy for each pesharim found. Charlesworth justly qualifies Cross' conclusion and points to the likelihood that at least some of the pesharim are copies. While arguments for the autographic status of 4Q171 are inconclusive, the absence of other copies and the relative lack of scribal errors and corrections (there is a superlinear insertion in III, 5a) does give credence to the view that 4Q171 was at least a copy of a recent composition, if not the original autograph.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3dtfh ... es&f=false

In any event, this is an interesting issue that I want to look into more.