- First embryo: the prophecy about an angel "coming out of heaven" in the future:
And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
(Revelation 20:1-3)
- Second embryo: a marginal messianic figure, named Jesus, who will be killed and then crucified.
11 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.” 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies... in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
the Christian interpolator found the Jewish original text saying:
Their bodies were hanged/crucified in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—
…and since he knew about only a crucified (the Lord Jesus Christ), he destroyed "were hanged/crucified" in the original text and then he added the interpolation, meant to explain who was "really" the only crucified victim:
Their bodies ... in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified
But naturally he has left the traces of the his corruption + interpolation of the text.
Hence these two messianic figures (killed and then crucified) were Joshua and Zorobabel. Therefore, there was a pre-Christian figure of a Jesus (not a deity, only a marginal messianic figure) who was (before) killed and (after) crucified "in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt").
But then the two embryos were fused.
By the Pillars + Paul.
How ?
They had an apocalyptic hallucination: an angel said them that he had come down from heaven (hence: realizing the prophecy of the first embryo), but in the form of the messianic figure Joshua (realizing the death and crucifixion of the second embryo). Being an angel, he was crucified by demons. Where? The answer depends from the place that has to be identified with "Sodom and Egypt".
So the great Mythicist Earl Doherty:
Is John using these oracles literally, or only as a symbolic representation (in a piece of writing saturated with symbolism) of the people of God being rejected and attacked by the godless world? As for verse 8's "great city," many commentators regard this as symbolic, and not a literal reference to Jerusalem. For example, John Sweet (op. cit., p.187) suggests that it represents the social and political embodiment of rebellion against God; "its present location is Rome." P. E. Hughes (Revelation: A Commentary, p.127) takes it as denoting "the worldwide structure of unbelief and defiance against God." G. A. Kroedel (Augsberg Commentary on Revelation, p. 226), while regarding the city on one level as Jerusalem, sees it "not as a geographical location but a symbolic place," representing the immoral, idolatrous, oppressive world. It is, then, a symbol of the corruption personified by great cities in general, the godless world "where their Lord was crucified." This says no more than that the sacrifice of Christ was the responsibility of the forces of evil and those who reject the gospel, a mystical concept which may have had no more historical substance than this in the mind of the writer.We might also note that the clause "where their Lord was crucified" could be taken as tied primarily to the "allegorically called Sodom and Egypt" (the Greek phrase is literally "spiritually called"), and would thus be a step removed from any literal material "city," even were the latter to be understood as Jerusalem.
O. S. Wintermute, in a study of the Apocalypse of Elijah (The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, vol. 1, p.748, note 'w'), observes that the term "great city" is frequently a pejorative expression, and was most often applied to the metropolis of a detested enemy. Comparing Revelation, he admits that its author always uses the term to refer to Rome. However, he insists that the one exception is here in 11:8, "where it is used to describe the city in which the Lord was crucified." This is a good example of the practice of denying the acknowledged evidence on the basis of preconception. Wintermute would no doubt follow his argument full circle and declare that because the reference is to Jerusalem, this proves the writer is referring to the historical Jesus.
As for the reference to the "twelve apostles of the Lamb" whose names are inscribed on the twelve foundation stones of the New Jerusalem (21:14), this is a mystic number and not identified with any historical figures. This is indicated by the context: the heavenly Jerusalem possesses twelve gates bearing the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, and a city wall with twelve foundation stones; upon these stones are inscribed "the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Such "apostles" could have been envisioned as being of the type of John himself, namely prophets of the spiritual Christ.). It was probably such symbolic thinking which created the tradition that Jesus had had twelve disciples during an earthly ministry.
Finally, the reference to "the Lord's Day" (1:10) can as easily be to the Jewish Sabbath as to the later Christian Sunday, and commentators are in fact split as to its meaning.
O. S. Wintermute, in a study of the Apocalypse of Elijah (The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, vol. 1, p.748, note 'w'), observes that the term "great city" is frequently a pejorative expression, and was most often applied to the metropolis of a detested enemy. Comparing Revelation, he admits that its author always uses the term to refer to Rome. However, he insists that the one exception is here in 11:8, "where it is used to describe the city in which the Lord was crucified." This is a good example of the practice of denying the acknowledged evidence on the basis of preconception. Wintermute would no doubt follow his argument full circle and declare that because the reference is to Jerusalem, this proves the writer is referring to the historical Jesus.
As for the reference to the "twelve apostles of the Lamb" whose names are inscribed on the twelve foundation stones of the New Jerusalem (21:14), this is a mystic number and not identified with any historical figures. This is indicated by the context: the heavenly Jerusalem possesses twelve gates bearing the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, and a city wall with twelve foundation stones; upon these stones are inscribed "the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Such "apostles" could have been envisioned as being of the type of John himself, namely prophets of the spiritual Christ.). It was probably such symbolic thinking which created the tradition that Jesus had had twelve disciples during an earthly ministry.
Finally, the reference to "the Lord's Day" (1:10) can as easily be to the Jewish Sabbath as to the later Christian Sunday, and commentators are in fact split as to its meaning.
http://hercolano3.blogspot.com/2010/03/ ... l.html?m=0
Hence, Doherty seems to assume that the "great city" is a metaphor for Outer Space.
Curiously, independently from any my speculation, the great Mythicist Richard Carrier argues for the equation of exactly that Joshua with the Logos via Philo.
Especially, according to dr. Carrier, that messianic figure was accused by Satan and rewarded by YHWH in... ...in heaven:
As I mentioned, an 'exoteric' reading of Zechariah 3 and 6 would conclude the author originally meant the first high priest of the second temple, Jesus ben Jehozadak (Zech. 6.11; cf. Hag. 1.1), who somehow came into an audience with God, in a coronation ceremony (one would presume in heaven, as it is in audience with God and his angels and attended by Satan) granting him supreme supernatural power over the universe (Zech. 3.7).
…
The fact that in his coronation scene his dirty rags are replaced with magnificent raiment in heaven (Zech. 3.3-5) could also have been read as a resurrection metaphor, such a change of garments being a common metaphor for that at the time.
…
The fact that in his coronation scene his dirty rags are replaced with magnificent raiment in heaven (Zech. 3.3-5) could also have been read as a resurrection metaphor, such a change of garments being a common metaphor for that at the time.
(OHJ, p. 82, my bold)
