Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Secret Alias » Thu May 21, 2020 3:03 pm

We have evidence that canonical Mark circulated for centuries before we know of anyone interpreting any of it parts in a homosexual way.
Really? So we lived through an interrupted period of enlightenment where people could say whatever they wanted about Jesus. The Church was this open minded organization which encouraged as many points of view about the Lord and Savior of all humanity. Right ...

My point in citing those idiotic attempts to wrestle with Mark 14:51 - 52 was because the authors were too stupid to lie. Mark 14:51 - 52 sounds just as 'gay' as Secret Mark. The fact that Christian books don't have 'gay' interpretations of Mark 14:51 - 52 is of little consequence. The gay interpretation of Secret Mark is a reflection of the naive 'first read' of Mark 14:51 - 52. You don't need someone whispering in your ear that it is strange. What's the Savior doing with a naked youth? I can continue to cite the question. It comes up naturally. And most of us have bad minds and dirty thoughts.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Ken Olson
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Ken Olson » Fri May 22, 2020 7:30 am

Secret Alias wrote:
The gay interpretation of Secret Mark is a reflection of the naive 'first read' of Mark 14:51 - 52. You don't need someone whispering in your ear that it is strange. What's the Savior doing with a naked youth? I can continue to cite the question. It comes up naturally. And most of us have bad minds and dirty thoughts.
Are you saying that
in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night
also sounds gay at the naive 'first read'?

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Secret Alias
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Secret Alias » Fri May 22, 2020 7:49 am

I am saying Secret Mark and Mark 14:51 - 52 are very similar. Like My Sweet Lord and He's So Fine. If you find one catchy you will probably like the other one too.


Same producer = Phil Spector

Same writer = Mark

It's a powerful argument for authenticity.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Ken Olson
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Ken Olson » Fri May 22, 2020 8:04 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:49 am
I am saying Secret Mark and Mark 14:51 - 52 are very similar. Like My Sweet Lord and He's So Fine. If you find one catchy you will probably like the other one too.
Same producer = Phil Spector

Same writer = Mark

It's a powerful argument for authenticity.
First, that didn’t answer the question I asked, on whether you were saying Secret Mark sounded gay at first read. (I’m pretty sure you were saying that, but I thought I should ask).

Second, no, the fact that you can produce imitations that resemble the original does not help your case. And that the imitation takes over the structure of the original but uses it for a different message does not either. He’s So Fine is not about Kriisna and I Want A New Drug does not encourage you to call the Ghostbusters.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Secret Alias » Fri May 22, 2020 8:42 am

Well it's strange to draw attention to nudity. So for me as person who lived very little of his life naked (basically being a baby, washing in the shower, very brief sexual encounters - but it all adds up to maybe a month in the course of my whole life). But antiquity was markedly different. It is one thing to speak about my perspective as an modern reader and that of an ancient experience. I don't know what it was like to hear the gospel half-naked or as one who lived most of his life in a state of half-nakedness. Neither do you.

I am trying to listen to the Illiad as an audio recording. It's really hard for me to get into it - because I live over two thousand years from when it was insanely popular. I can't get into baseball because I am not an American. I just don't get it. It just seems really boring. Americans say the same thing about football (soccer). But I played it. I know the skill involved even in the minutest turn or flick. Perspective matters.

And your second point misses what I was saying. Phil Spector's 'style' was reflected in two different songs. He can't help it. Mark can't help it. He just happens to write in a certain way. The structure of narratives. The things he is interested in. Young naked boys wearing linen cloths seems to be another.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Secret Alias » Fri May 22, 2020 8:48 am

I am not a great thinker (as you can tell). But I think the one thing I am attuned to is another person's perspective. I think my parents drilled that into my head. See things from someone else's perspective. I don't see my experience as universal. How I read a passage isn't as important as how an ancient read a passage. It's hard to reconstruct that with any degree of certainty. Certainly nudity could be sexualized. But as we see from Maximus of Tyre when he used 'naked with naked' the 'stripping off' of the linen cloth was a metaphor for death which doesn't quite work for us because we have different dress habits. It's also in Paul. But you don't want to consider that. You don't seem to want to see things from the ancient perspective because you are certain at the outset the passage is fake. As a forgery all that matters is how it is read today. I don't think you've taken the time to go beyond your own shadow. Your need for certainty is limiting the way you consider the material. It isn't certain that it is a forgery so you have to approach the material with more consideration and deference.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Secret Alias » Fri May 22, 2020 9:03 am

I have kind of a funny story about nudity. This friend of my wife when she used to work at Bell Canada had a mother who remarried and joined a nudist colony. He had to visit his mom with her new husband. The guy's name was Andre he was a really character. He got to the nudist colony and there's his mother - buff naked. He doesn't know where to look. So he takes great pains to stare at her face. Eventually he feels so uncomfortable he decides to strip naked too. After a while he said, it was like completely normal. He didn't notice his mom's nakedness.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Secret Alias » Fri May 22, 2020 9:05 am

And there is a nudist streak in early Christianity. The Gospel of Thomas.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Secret Alias » Fri May 22, 2020 10:28 am

Actually upon reflection, I left the funniest part of the Andre story. So he's feel uncomfortable. His naked mother picks up on the discomfort and suggests that he'd be more comfortable if he undressed and then he did. That's the 'punchline' I forgot.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Secret Alias » Fri May 22, 2020 11:14 am

We don't need to think abstractly about this. The NKJV commentary on 2 Corinthians 5 (thus not Mark per se but the letters of Paul which in turn speaks to a wider Christian understanding):
Ancient writers sometimes portrayed the present or resurrected body as clothing and death as disrobing. Judeans and other eastern peoples loathed nudity; while Greeks and Romans disliked it in particular situations, both bathed naked in the baths and Greeks exercised naked. For Paul, the image is undesirable—the body's death is not in itself desirable, in contrast to the view of some philosophers (especially Platonists) who viewed positively the soul's release from the body. For the body as clothing, see 1 Cor. 15.53- 55
The material as Clement had it (which is slightly different than our own received text) again:
For we know, that, if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we walk by faith not by sight and we are willing rather to be absent from the body and present with God. Wherefore we strive whether present or absent to be accepted with Him.
Clement Stromata 4.26
Now the soul of the wise man and Gnostic, as sojourning in the body, conducts itself towards it gravely and respectfully, not with inordinate affections, as about to leave the tabernacle if the time of departure summon. "I am a stranger in the earth, and a sojourner with you," it is said. And hence Basilides says, that he apprehends that the election are strangers to the world, being supramundane by nature. But this is not the case. For all things are of one God. And no one is a stranger to the world by nature, their essence being one, and God one. But the elect man dwells as a sojourner, knowing all things to be possessed and disposed of; and he makes use of the things which the Pythagoreans (Περιπατητικοὶ) make out to be the threefold good things. The body, too, as one sent on a distant pilgrimage, uses inns and dwellings by the way, having care of the things of the world, of the places where he halts; but leaving his dwelling-place and property without excessive emotion; readily following him that leads him away from life; by no means and on no occasion turning back; giving thanks for his sojourn, and blessing [God] for his departure, embracing the mansion that is in heaven "For we know, that, if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we walk by faith, notby sight," as the apostle says; "and we are willing rather to be absent from the body, and present with God." The rather is in comparison. And comparison obtains in the case of things that fall under resemblance; as the more valiant man is more valiant among the valiant, and most valiant among cowards. Whence he adds, "Wherefore we strive, whether present or absent, to be accepted with Him," that is, God, whose work and creation are all things, both the world and things supramundane. I admire Epicharmus, who clearly says: "Endowed with pious mind, you will not, in dying, Suffer aught evil. The spirit will dwell in heaven above;" and the minstrel who sings: "The souls of the wicked flit about below the skies on earth, In murderous pains beneath inevitable yokes of evils; But those of the pious dwell in the heavens, Hymning in songs the Great, the Blessed One."
ibid 5.6
And they say that the robe prophesied the ministry in the flesh, by which He was seen in closer relation to the world. So the high priest, putting off his consecrated robe (the universe, and the creation in the universe, were consecrated by Him assenting that, what was made, was good), washes himself, and puts on the other tunic -- a holy-of holies one, so to speak -- which is to accompany him into the adytum; exhibiting, as seems to me, the Levite and Gnostic, as the chief of other priests (those bathed in water, and clothed in faith alone, and expecting their own individual abode), himself distinguishing the objects of the intellect from the things of sense, rising above other priests, hasting to the entrance to the world of ideas, to wash himself from the things here below, not in water, as formerly one was cleansed on being enrolled in the tribe of Levi. But purified already by the gnostic Word in his whole heart, and thoroughly regulated, and having improved that mode of life received from the priest to the highest pitch, being quite sanctified both in word and life, and having put on the bright array of glory, and received the ineffable inheritance of that spiritual and perfect man, "which eye hath not seen and ear hath not heard, and it hath not entered into the heart of man;" and having become son and friend, he is now replenished with insatiable contemplation face to face. For there is nothing like hearing the Word Himself, who by means of the Scripture inspires fuller intelligence. For so it is said, "And he shall put off the linen robe, which he had put on when he entered into the holy place; and shall lay it aside there, and wash his body in water in the holy place, and put on his robe." But in one way, as I think, the Lord puts off and puts on by descending into the region of sense; and in another, he who through Him has believed puts off and puts on, as the apostle intimated, the consecrated stole. Thence, after the image of the Lord. the worthiest were chosen from the sacred tribes to be high priests, and those elected to the kingly office and to prophecy were anointed
ibid 6.9
For it is impossible that he who has been once made perfect by love, and feasts eternally and insatiably on the boundless joy of contemplation, should delight in small and grovelling things. For what rational cause remains any more to the man who has gained "the light inaccessible," for revering to the good things of the world? Although not yet true as to time and place, yet by that gnostic love through which the inheritance and perfect restitution follow, the giver of the reward makes good by deeds what the Gnostic, by gnostic choice, had grasped by anticipation through love. For by going away to the Lord, for the love he bears Him, though his tabernacle be visible on earth, he does not withdraw himself from life. For that is not permitted to him. But he has withdrawn his soul from the passions. For that is granted to him. And on the other hand he lives, having put to death his lusts, and no longer makes use of the body, but allows it the use of necessaries, that he may not give cause for dissolution.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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