Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by MrMacSon » Sat May 30, 2020 3:58 pm

Ken Olson wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 2:29 pm
robert j wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 9:53 am
The Greek term epoptai (ἐπόπται) is typically translated in bibles as "eyewitnesses". But in an historical context, the word was used primarily as a technical term in the non-Christian Eleusinian Mysteries, widespread in the eastern Mediterranean at the time. The term was used to designate advanced initiates who had attained esoteric knowledge.
That's interesting. Could you cite primary sources for that (i.e., the use of ἐπόπται)?

Strong's Concordance 2030 https://biblehub.com/greek/2030.htm

epoptés: a looker-on, i.e. a spectator
Original Word: ἐπόπτης, ου, ὁ

Definition: a looker-on, a spectator
Usage: an eyewitness, spectator, looker-on.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

ἐπόπτης, ἐπόπτου, ὁ (from unused ἐπόπτω);
1. an overseer, inspector, see ἐπίσκοπος; (Aeschylus, Pindar, others; of God, in 2 Macc. 3:39, 7:35; 3 Macc. 2:21; Additions to Esther 5:1; ἀνθρωπίνων ἔργων, Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 59, 3 [ET]).

2. a spectator, eye-witness of anything: so in 2 Peter 1:16; inasmuch as those were called ἐπόπται by the Greeks who had attained to the third (i. e. the highest) grade of the Eleusinian mysteries (Plutarch, Alcib. 22, and elsewhere), the word seems to be used here to designate those privileged to be present at the heavenly spectacle of the transfiguration of Christ.


Gene Green, in Jude and 2 Peter (Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament), refers to

"contexts [which] refer to an "overseer", such as a divinity who oversees all things" (Job 34:23; Esth. 5:1a [add Esth 15:2 Eng J; 2 Macc. 3:39; 7:35; 12:22; 15:2; Mac 2:21; 1 Clem 59:3; Let Aris. 16), or to the emperor ....

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=5Q ... B9&f=false


Terrance Callan noted, in Acknowledging the Divine Benefactor: The Second Letter of Peter,


This word, was used for higher-level initiates into mystery cults, meaning they had seen sacred things.10

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=jd ... B9&f=false

robert j wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 9:53 am

In 2 Peter, the author casts the transfiguration in terms of a Mystery religion ritual. And Clement casts the Christian faith in terms of the Mysteries. These authors, at least in these passages, are conceptual compadres ---

2 Peter 1:16-19Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Hellenes,12
… having been eyewitnesses (ἐπόπται)*** of His majesty. For having received honor and glory from God the Father, a voice such as follows was brought to Him by the Majestic Glory, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." And we heard this voice having been brought from heaven, being with Him in the holy mountain.

And we have the more certain prophetic word, to which you do well taking heed, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until this day shall have dawned and the morning star (phósphoros, φωσφόρος, light- bringing) shall have arisen in your hearts,

O truly sacred mysteries! O pure light! In the blaze of the torches I have a vision from heaven and of God. I become holy by initiation. The Lord reveals the mysteries ; He marks the worshipper with his seal, gives light to guide his way, and commends him, when he has believed, to the Father's care, where he is guarded for ages to come. These are the revels of the mysteries! ...


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Secret Alias
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Secret Alias » Sun May 31, 2020 3:36 pm

There can be argued to be a reference to Secret Mark or the logic of the passage cited in To Theodore in Stromata 3.62:
“we must all appear before Christ’s tribunal, where each must receive what is due to him for his physical conduct, good or bad,” that is, where a person may receive recompense for what he has done by means of his body. “So that, if a person is in Christ, he is recreated” in a way no longer subject to sin. “The past is gone” – we have washed away the old life. “Look, new things have emerged” – chastity instead of sexual looseness, self-control instead of license, righteousness instead of unrighteousness. “What have righteousness and lawlessness in common? What fellowship is there between light and darkness? Can Christ agree with Beliar? (3) What have the faithful to do with the faithless? Can there be a compact between the Temple of God and idols?” 239 “These are the promises made to us. Let us purify ourselves of anything that can stain flesh or spirit, aiming at the goal of holiness in the fear of God.”
It is followed by a lengthy discussion of the 'Gospel according to the Egyptians' and Salome's role in that gospel. 'Appearing before Christ's tribunal' is done naked. What clothes could you have in the afterlife?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Ken Olson
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Ken Olson » Sun May 31, 2020 4:23 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 3:36 pm
There can be argued to be a reference to Secret Mark or the logic of the passage cited in To Theodore in Stromata 3.62:
Could you put that in the form of a logical argument?

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Secret Alias
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Secret Alias » Sun May 31, 2020 5:40 pm

No. It was a random comment. A "maybe." Not a "for sure."
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:29 pm

A non-canonical rebuke at Jericho known to two Alexandrian Church Fathers

Secret Mark frag 2
And after the words, "And he comes to Jericho," the secret Gospel adds only, "And the sister of the youth whom Jesus loved and his mother and Salome were there, and Jesus did not accept them into his company." (καὶ ἔρχεται εἰς Ἱεριχὼ ἐπάγει μόνον, καὶ ἦσαν ἐκεῖ ἡ ἀδελφὴ τοῦ νεανίσκου, ὃν ἠγάπα αὐτὸν ὁ Ἰησοῦς, καὶ ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ καὶ Σαλώμη, καὶ οὐκ ἀπεδέξατο αὐτὰς ὁ Ἰησοῦς)
Origen Commentary on Matthew 16
First, let us contemplate why it is that when the disciples of Jesus are going out from Jericho with the Savior a large crowd followed him. See, then, if you remember those things we suggested for the parable in the gospel according to Luke [which reads], “There was a man descending from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell in with robbers” (Lk 10.30), whether perhaps you can also understand that Jericho here is mentioned as a symbol of the earthly place that Scripture is in the habit of calling “world” (kosmos). When Adam (that is, mankind), therefore, descends “from Jerusalem to Jericho,” he fell in “with robbers.” But on account of the multitudes in Jericho (for a great crowd was in Jericho) let our Jesus,40 who was in [the city] along with the disciples, go out, undertaking (on account of having entered into Jericho) to lead those [out of the city] who desire [K504] to follow. account of the multitudes in Jericho (for a great crowd was in Jericho) let our Jesus, who was in [the city] along with the disciples, go out, undertaking (on account of having entered into Jericho) to lead those [out of the city] who desire [K504] to follow. For those who are in Jericho do not know to come out from the worldly way of thinking, unless they might observe not only Jesus going out from Jericho but also his disciples And after seeing these things, a great crowd follows him. It is for him who perceives those who desire to live according to the word and are choosing to despise the world and the <whole> earthly realm, who follow Jesus and his disciples and are advancing in step with those who are going out from Jericho, to see the things according to this passage. Nevertheless the great crowd follows Jesus, so that travelling behind him and accepting his guidance they might ascend to Jerusalem ***. 10. (After a little, then, it is mentioned that “when they were drawing near to Jerusalem they came to Bethpage, to the mount of Olives, then Jesus sent out two disciples,” etc. [Matt 21.1]).

καὶ πρῶτόν γε κατανοήσωμεν τί τὸ ἐκπορευομένων ἀπὸ Ἱεριχὼ τῶν μαθητῶν τοῦ Ἰησοῦ μετὰ τοῦ σωτῆρος ἠκολουθηκέναι αὐτῷ πολὺν ὄχλον. ὅρα τοίνυν εἰ δύνασαι, μεμνημένος τῶν ἡμῖν ὑπαγορευθέντων εἰς τὴν ἐν τῷ κατὰ Λουκᾶν εὐαγγελίῳ παραβολὴν τὴν »ἄνθρωπός τις κατέβαινεν ἀπὸ Ἱερουσαλὴμ εἰς Ἱεριχώ, καὶ περιέπεσε λῃσταῖς«, ἐπιστήσας λέγειν μήποτε καὶ ἐνταῦθα Ἱεριχὼ σύμβολόν ἐστι τοῦ περιγείου τόπου συνήθως καλουμένου κατὰ τὴν γραφὴν κόσμου. ὁ μὲν οὖν καταβαίνων »ἀπὸ Ἱερουσαλὴμ εἰς Ἱεριχὼ« Ἀδὰμ (τουτέστιν ἄνθρωπος) περιπέπτωκε »λῃσταῖς«. διὰ δὲ τοὺς ἐν Ἱεριχὼ πολλοὺς (πολὺς γὰρ ὄχλος ἐν Ἱεριχὼ) ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἡμῶν ἅμα τοῖς μαθηταῖς γενόμενος ἐν αὐτῇ ἐκπορευέσθω πραγματευόμενος (διὰ δὴ τοῦ εἰς τὴν Ἱεριχὼ εἰσεληλυθέναι) τὸ τοὺς βουλομένους [K504] ἕπεσθαι ὁδηγεῖν. οὐ γὰρ οἴδασιν οἱ ἐν Ἱεριχὼ ἐξελθεῖν ἀπὸ τοῦ κοσμικοῦ φρονήματος, ἐὰν μὴ θεάσωνται οὐ μόνον τὸν Ἰησοῦν ἐκπορευόμενον ἀπὸ τῆς Ἱεριχὼ ἀλλὰ καὶ τοὺς μαθητὰς αὐτοῦ. ταῦτα δὲ θεωρήσαντες ἀκολουθοῦσιν αὐτῷ ὄχλος πολύς. καὶ ἔστι κατανοοῦντα τοὺς κατὰ τὸν λόγον βιοῦν θέλοντας καὶ τοῦ κόσμου καὶ τῶν περιγείων <ὅλων> καταφρονεῖν βουλομένους, ἀκολουθοῦντας τῷ Ἰησοῦ καὶ τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ καὶ κατ᾿ ἴχνη βαίνοντας αὐτοῖς ἐκπορευομένοις ἀπὸ Ἱεριχώ, βλέπειν τὰ κατὰ τὸν τόπον. ἀκολουθοῦσι μέντοι ὁ πολὺς ὄχλος τῷ Ἰησοῦ, ἵν᾿ ὀπίσω αὐτοῦ βαδίζοντες καὶ αὐτῷ ὁδηγῷ χρώμενοι ἀναβῶσιν εἰς τὴν Ἱερουσαλήμ ***. 10. (μετ᾿ ὀλίγα οὖν ἐπιφέρεται ὅτι »ὅτε ἤγγισαν εἰς Ἱεροσόλυμα καὶ ἦλθον εἰς Βηθφαγὴν εἰς τὸ ὄρος τῶν Ἐλαιῶν, τότε ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἀπέστειλε δύο μαθητὰς« καὶ τὰ ἑξῆς).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Ken Olson
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Ken Olson » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:41 pm

Matthew 20.29 seems relevant here:
29 As they were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed Him.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:47 pm

And on Mark's fascination with nudity:
Throwing his clothes aside, he (the blind man) jumped to his feet and came to Jesus.[Mark 10:50]
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Ken Olson
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Ken Olson » Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:02 pm

Mark 10:50 NRSV:
50 Throwing aside his cloak, he jumped up and came to Jesus.
Wikipedia on the himation (‘cloak’)
A himation (Ancient Greek: ἱμάτιον, /hɪˈmætiˌɒn/, hə-MAT-ee-un[1]) was a type of clothing, a mantle or wrap worn by ancient Greek men and women from the Archaic through the Hellenistic periods (c. 750–30 BC).

Sitting Achilles wrapped in a himation, depicted on a greek kylix from ca 500 BC.
It was usually worn over a chiton and/or peplos, but was made of heavier drape and played the role of a cloak or shawl. When the himation was used alone (without a chiton), and served both as a chiton and as a cloak, it was called an achiton. The himation was markedly less voluminous than the Roman toga. It was usually a large rectangular piece of woollen cloth. Many vase paintings depict women wearing a himation as a veil covering their faces.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:13 pm

He's a beggar. He wasn't wearing a tuxedo. This is a good example of how Carlson's friends often take reactionary positions which they know are ridiculous. A beggar in antiquity didn't wear layers of clothes. You know that. I know that. Let's move on. Mark is the naked gospel.

https://books.google.com/books?id=xU9QA ... ed&f=false

Also the demoniac wanders among the tombs naked. This is pretty much over.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:11 am

And with respect to the parallel with Matthew. Yes of course Matthew says what you say it says. But notice Mark again:
Mark that “he also came to Jericho [X] and when he was coming out of there” (Mk 10.46)
There clearly seems to be something missing or taken away from the narrative. I was just saying that Origen's filling in of the blanks - while referencing the wording of Matthew - agrees with the second addition of Secret Mark insofar as there was a rebuke of some sort. I am not saying this is going to tip the scales either way. Just a mental note. Something seems to have been taken out of this place and other places in Mark.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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