The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

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davidmartin
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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by davidmartin » Thu May 14, 2020 6:10 pm

As the discerning reader can begin to piece together, the emerging portrait of Paul in the Acts of Paul has a strong resemblance - or at least stronger resemblance to Marcionism - than what we see in 1 Timothy.
Indeed, Montanism also. The Timothy pastorals could be read as opposing Prisca and Maximilla themselves
And also that group in Egypt associated with the Acts of Andrew which i've forgotten the details of. They had women in the leader role been trying to remember their name for a while
The great thing about studying this is the politics of it all shows a literalist mindset to scripture is just no guarantee of orthodoxy

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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by Secret Alias » Thu May 14, 2020 6:13 pm

2 Timothy?
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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by Secret Alias » Fri May 15, 2020 7:43 am

Let me summarize where we are with respect to the Timothy tradition:

1. scholars have noticed that 1 Timothy doesn't reflect the same POV as 2 Timothy
2. some have suggested that 1 Timothy was built from 2 Timothy and Titus
3. as such 2 Timothy was first and 1 Timothy second

But many of us also likely feel that 1 Timothy was a correction of some of the 'scandalous' aspects of 2 Timothy. I think that the 'feminism' might have been Marcionite or Montanist. Not that the things reflected in 2 Timothy were in themselves scandalous but that there seems by the time of Celsus and Irenaeus to have been a concern that Christianity was 'loosening' women from their normal social duties (childbirth, obedience to husband, being loud 'hysterical) as well as encouraging 'anti-social' behaviors (i.e. maintaining a unique diet, reviling the ruler of the world).

The observation that the Acts of Paul and 2 Timothy share one worldview and 1 Timothy a corrective 'secondary' one has already been made. But I think we have rushed too quickly to assume that 2 Timothy shaped the Acts of Paul. What if it were the other way around? In other words:

1. body of authentic epistles of Paul (probably Marcionite)
2. Acts of the Apostles in their Catholic form
3. Acts of Paul
4. 2 Timothy and Titus
5. 1 Timothy as the corrective of things in 3 and 4

The next question is - what is the earliest date we can assign to the Acts of Paul? Wikipedia suggests 160 CE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Paul
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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by Stuart » Fri May 15, 2020 10:00 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 3:11 pm
Both scenarios say that Timothy is separate from Paul, that Timothy followers are different than Paul. Perhaps they overlapped, or where aligned with the Marcionites.
Why would we expect Paul to be writing to someone who standing right beside him?
Because Paul is a fiction, a legend. You certainly do not believe in single individuals writing tracts of the NT, so why push that presumption on me, when I never supported it in the first place? That is not a an honest question.acting

Note, the same is true in Acts, Paul and Timothy are never together. Separation by distance is a common way for a writer to say separated by time. The two legends do not overlap, never do anything together. This suggests they are separate legends being brought together by the author.

This is not uncommon. You bring two together and you decide which is more important by which one gives deference to the other. Paul circumcising Timothy in Acts of the Apostles shows that the Catholic author wanted him to be subservient. In the Marcionite Paul, if the openings were similar, Timothy is an equal, and perhaps Silvanus as well, to Paul. But Paul in the Marcionite Paul is subservient to no person, not equal to any, but the undisputed source of authority and leader. He personally cast one to Satan (as opposed to requesting it in the Catholic text -- Marcionite preserved in 1 Timothy, ironically). That is an inconsistency. Timothy was important enough for the collector of the letters to place alongside Paul, the Paul who was the sole authority. Ask yourself why, if Timothy were not the key figure of some separate sect. This is not much different than the absorbing of John the Baptist in the gospels.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift

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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by Secret Alias » Sat May 16, 2020 6:48 am

The earliest citations of 2 Timothy according to biblindex. This took me a while to compile especially given the fact that biblindex doesn't include Irenaeus Against Heresies in their compilation (for reasons I don't understand).
2 Timothy 1, 2 Origen
2 Timothy 1, 3 Origen
2 Timothy 1, 6 Origen
2 Timothy 1, 7,8 Clement of Alexandria (Stromata 4.49.5) ["Be not therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, or of me his prisoner," he writes to Timothy] BP1, Origen, Tertullian (Scorpiace)
2 Timothy 1, 10 Irenaeus (Demonstration), Clement of Alexandria (Stromata 4.91.2), Origen
2 Timothy 1, 11 Acts of Paul (p.50, l.15) BP1, Origen, Novatian
2 Timothy 1, 13 Origen
2 Timothy 1, 14 Origen, Tertullian (Prescription 25.2 p.206, l.7) [and again: "That good thing which was committed unto thee keep."]
2 Timothy 1, 15 Tertullian (Aduersus Hermogenem 1.2, Resurrection of the Flesh 24.8) not in biblindex Prescription " ... that certain men, like Phygellus, and Hermogenes, and Philetus, and Hymenµus, deserted His apostle."
2 Timothy 1, 16 Acts of Paul B 2 .2 (p.148, l.5) Tertullian Resurrection of the Flesh 23.10) Ignatius (Epistle to the Smyrneans 10.2) not in biblindex Ignatius Epistle to the Ephesians ["hath not been ashamed of my chain,"] Origen
2 Timothy 1, 18 Origen not in biblindex Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans ["The Lord grant" to you "that ye may find mercy of the Lord in that day!"] Ignatius Epistle to Hero [Salute Cassian, my host, and his most serious-minded partner in life, and their very dear children, to whom may "God grant that they find mercy of the Lord in that day,"]
2 Timothy 2, 1 Minucius Felix 37.3, Clement of Alexandria (Stromata 1.3.3) [And the things which thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also."] Hippolytus Antichrist
2 Timothy 2, 2 Clement Hypotyposeis (p.201, l.13) BP1, Clement of Alexandria (Stromata 1.3.3) Hippolytus Antichrist, Tertullian (Prescription 25.6,8) [publicly: "Before many witnesses" is his phrase.] [" Nor, again, must the circumstance of his having wished him to "commit these things to faithful men, who should be able to teach others also,"] Origen
2 Timothy 2, 3 Acts of Paul 10.2, Tertullian De exhortatione castitatis 12.1, Origen, not in biblindex Tertullian Prescription [against those who said that "the resurrection was past already."]
2 Timothy 2, 4 Minucius Felix 37.3, Acts of Marcellus, Origen, Tertullian De exhortatione castitatis 12.1, Cyprian, Ignatius to Polycarp 6.2, not in biblindex Ignatius to Hero ["No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier; and if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned except he strive lawfully."]
2 Timothy 2, 5 Pseudo-Clement of Rome Ad uirgines epistulae duae 1.5, Hippolytus, Origen, Cyprian
2 Timothy 2, 7 Pseudo-Clement of Rome Ad uirgines epistulae duae 1.3.5
2 Timothy 2, 8 Acts of Paul of Samosata, De Recta in Deum Fide, Anti-Paul of Samosata to the Antiochenes.
2 Timothy 2, 11 Origen, Tertullian Scorpiace 13.11
2 Timothy 2, 12 Polycarp to the Philippians 5.2 [worthily of Him, "we shall also reign together with Him,"], Cyprian, Hippolytus, Origen, Hagiographic writing.
2 Timothy 2, 13 Origen, Tertullian Scorpiace 13.11
2 Timothy 2, 14 Origen
2 Timothy 2, 15 Acts of Paul 10.1, Clement of Alexandria Stromata 1.3.3 [" Accordingly, the blessed apostle very appropriately and urgently exhorts us "not to strive about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers, but to shun profane and vain babblings, for they increase unto more ungodliness, and their word will eat as doth a canker."], Pseudo-Clement of Rome Ad uirgines epistulae duae 1.3.5, Origen
2 Timothy 2, 16 Clement Stromata 1.49.3
2 Timothy 2, 17 Clement Stromata 1.49.3, Tertullian Prescription 7.7, Hippolytus, Cyprian, Origen not in biblindex Irenaeus Against Heresies [rom being able to raise the dead, as the Lord raised them, and the apostles did by means of prayer, and as has been frequently done in the brotherhood on account of some necessity-the entire Church in that particular locality entreating [the boon] with much fasting and prayer, the spirit of the dead man has returned, and he has been bestowed in answer to the prayers of the saints-that they do not even believe this can be possibly be done, [and hold] that the resurrection from the dead] NOT A CITATION PER SE
2 Timothy 2, 18 Acts of Paul 2.14, Tertullian 33.7, Gospel of Philip 90, Hippolytus
2 Timothy 2, 19 Egerton papyrus, Origen
2 Timothy 2, 20 Refutation of All Heresies 5.7.36, Gospel of Philip 51, Origen, Cyprian
2 Timothy 2, 21 Acts of Thomas, Gospel of Philip 51, Origen
2 Timothy 2, 22 Clement of Alexandria Stromata 1.51.2, Origen
2 Timothy 2, 23 Pseudo-Clement of Rome Ad uirgines epistulae duae 1.10.4, Clement of Alexandria Stromata 1.51.2, 5.5.1, Origen, Cyprian, not in biblindex Irenaeus Against Heresies [of truth, hold no such opinions, but that they did also preach to us to shun these doctrines] NOT A CITATION PER SE
2 Timothy 2, 24 Origen, Cyprian not in biblindex Ignatius Ephesians [Wherefore Paul exhorts as follows: "The servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle towards all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves."]
2 Timothy 2, 25 Polycarp to the Philippians 11.4, Origen
2 Timothy 2, 26 Origen not in biblindex Ignatius Philadelphians [I therefore exhort you in the Lord to receive with all tenderness those that repent and return to the unity of the Church, that through your kindness and forbearance they may recover[14]]
2 Timothy 3, 1 Tertullian De ieiunio (aduersus psychicos) 12.2, On the Resurrection of the Flesh 41.6, Hippolytus, Origen
2 Timothy 3, 2 Clement of Alexandria Stromata 1.87.7, Origen
2 Timothy 3, 4 Origen, Gregory in Praise of Origen 12.149 not in biblindex Ignatius Magnesians [who are "lovers of pleasure, and not lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof."]
2 Timothy 3, 5 Acts of Paul, Pseudo-Clement of Rome Ad uirgines epistulae duae 1.3.3 - 4, 1.10.1, 1.10.5, Cyprian, Origen
2 Timothy 3, 6 Origen not in biblindex Irenaeus Against Heresies 1 [Such are the words and deeds by which, in our own district of the Rhone, they have deluded many women, who have their consciences seared as with a hot iron.]
2 Timothy 3, 7 Hippolytus, Origen not in biblindex Irenaeus Against Heresies 4 [For, being driven away from Him who truly is [God], and being turned backwards, he shall be for ever seeking, yet shall never find out God;] 5 [Now, such are all the heretics, and those who imagine that they have hit upon something more beyond the truth, so that by following those things already mentioned, proceeding on their way variously, in harmoniously, and foolishly, not keeping always to the same opinions with regard to the same things, as blind men are led by the blind, they shall deservedly fall into the ditch of ignorance lying in their path, ever seeking and never finding out the truth]
2 Timothy 3, 8 Origen
2 Timothy 3, 9 Acts of Paul, Origen
2 Timothy 3, 11 Acts of Paul, Origen
2 Timothy 3, 12 Gaius of Rome fragments, Hippolytus Against Gaius, Ad uirgines epistulae duae 2.1.1, Origen
2 Timothy 3, 13 Gaius of Rome fragments, Hippolytus Against Gaius, Origen, Gregory Thaumaturgus 13.156
2 Timothy 3, 14, 15 Clement of Alexandria Exhortation 87.1
2 Timothy 3, 16 Clement of Alexandria Exhortation 87.2, Stromata 7.101.5, To Theodore, Tertullian De cultu feminarum 1.3.3, Origen, De Recta in Deum Fide
2 Timothy 3, 17 Clement of Alexandria Exhortation 87.2, Pseudo-Clement of Rome Ad uirgines epistulae duae 1.2.5, 1.9.2,
2 Timothy 4, 1 Didascalia apostolorum 19, 26, Hippolytus, Dionysius of Alexandria
2 Timothy 4, 2 Origen
2 Timothy 4, 3 Tertullian Prescription 7.1, Origen, Cyprian not in biblindex Irenaeus Against Heresies 2 [according to the meaning of the Greek word, because she secretly stirred up men), without the knowledge of the Demiurge, to give forth profound and unspeakable mysteries to itching ears.]
2 Timothy 4, 4 Origen, Cyprian
2 Timothy 4, 5 Origen,
2 Timothy 4, 6 Tertullian Scorpiace 13.10, Origen, Ignatius to the Romans 2.2 not in biblindex Ignatius Antiochenes [till God shall show who is to hold the rule over you. For "I am now ready to be offered,"]
2 Timothy 4, 7 Testimony of Truth 34.10, Acts of Thomas, Pseudo Clement of Rome Ad uirgines epistulae duae 1.6.4, 2.15. 6, Origen, Hippolytus, Life of Cyprian
2 Timothy 4, 8 Sybilline Oracle 2, Clement of Alexandria Instructor 2.74.1, Cyprian, Origen, Acts of Thomas, Acts of Thomas, Pseudo Clement of Rome Ad uirgines epistulae duae 2.15.6, Tertullian Scorpiace 13.10, Tertullian De pudicitia 10.8, Hippolytus, Life of Cyprian
2 Timothy 4, 10 Acts of Paul, Polycarp to the Philippians 9. 2, Origen not in biblindex Irenaeus Against Heresies 3 [and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia. Only Luke is with me."]
2 Timothy 4, 11 Acts of Paul, Origen
2 Timothy 4, 13 Tertullian De Oratione 15.2
2 Timothy 4, 17 Hippolytus
2 Timothy 4, 19 Acts of Paul
2 Timothy 4, 22 Acts of Paul
I for one am surprised by the combination (1) reference in Polycarp but (2) lack of references in Irenaeus. That might be important. The only direct citation I see is from the end of the epistle - "only Luke is with me" and the reference to Paul knowing Linus - which is of course very significant for the introduction of the gospel of Luke.

The situation with 1 Timothy and Irenaeus is very different:
1 Timothy 1:4 "as certain men have set the truth aside, and bring in lying words and vain genealogies, which, as the apostle says,

which the unlearned receive, and those of slender knowledge have taught, not "giving heed to endless genealogies,"

1 Timothy 1:9 Why, then, did the Lord not form the covenant for the fathers? Because "the law was not established for righteous men."

1 Timothy 2:5 And therefore in the last times the Lord has restored us into friendship through His incarnation, having become "the Mediator between God and men; "

1 Timothy 3:15 WE have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.

while the Church is scattered throughout all the world, and the "pillar and ground"

1 Timothy 4:2 did she in this way indicate Pandora and these men having their consciences seared

1 Timothy 4:3 And since the demons assist the most wicked, the Saviour came for the destruction of evil men and of the demons, but for the salvation of the good. They declare also, that marriage and generation are from Satan.

1 Timothy 6:4 - and, inasmuch as these men have no works of their father to adduce, the latter is shown to be God alone. But if any one, "doting about questions,"

he will not accede to the disputations and quibbles of proud and puffed-up men,

1 Timothy 6:20 In fine, they have a name derived from Simon, the author of these most impious doctrines, being called Simonians; and from them "knowledge, falsely so called,"

In the first book, which immediately precedes this, exposing "knowledge falsely so called,"

of language, they style ignorance of the truth knowledge: and Paul well says [of them, that [they make use of] "novelties of words of false knowledge."
I will examine Polycarp's use of 1 Timothy later but for the moment it can't be overstated how important the radical new understanding of Paul is in 1 Timothy and its 'influence' on Irenaeus. I would rather suppose that Irenaeus wrote 1 Timothy to make Paul a mirror of his own inclinations. I suspect that Polycarp wrote 2 Timothy but let's wait and see ...
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by Secret Alias » Sat May 16, 2020 9:55 am

The 4 citations of 1 Timothy in Polycarp:

But the love of money is the root of all evils. 1 Timothy 6:10 Knowing, therefore, that as we brought nothing into the world, so we can carry nothing out, 1 Timothy 6:7 let us arm ourselves with the armour of righteousness; Ephesians 6:11 and let us teach, first of all, ourselves to walk in the commandments of the Lord. Next, [teach] your wives [to walk] in the faith given to them, and in love and purity tenderly loving their own husbands in all truth, and loving all [others] equally in all chastity; and to train up their children in the knowledge and fear of God. Teach the widows to be discreet as respects the faith of the Lord, praying continually 1 Thessalonians 5:17 for all, being far from all slandering, evil-speaking, false-witnessing, love of money, and every kind of evil; knowing that they are the altar of God, that He clearly perceives all things, and that nothing is hid from Him, neither reasonings, nor reflections, nor any one of the secret things of the heart.


4.1 Ἀρχὴ δὲ πάντων χαλεπῶν φιλαργυρία. εἰδότες οὖν, ὅτι οὐδὲν εἰσηνέγκαμεν εἰς τὸν κόσμον, ἀλλ' οὐδὲ ἐξενεγκεῖν τι ἔχομεν, ὁπλισώμεθα τοῖς ὅπλοις τῆς δικαιοσύνης καὶ διδάξωμεν ἑαυτοὺς πρῶτον πορεύεσθαι ἐν τῇ ἐντολῇ
τοῦ κυρίου·

Knowing, then, that God is not mocked, Galatians 6:7 we ought to walk worthy of His commandment and glory. In like manner should the deacons be blameless before the face of His righteousness, as being the servants of God and Christ, and not of men. They must not be slanderers, double-tongued, 1 Timothy 3:8 or lovers of money, but temperate in all things, compassionate, industrious, walking according to the truth of the Lord, who was the servant Matthew 20:28 of all.

5.1 Εἰδότες οὖν, ὅτι θεὸς οὐ μυκτηρίζεται, ὀφείλομεν ἀξίως τῆς ἐντολῆς αὐτοῦ καὶ δόξης περιπατεῖν. 5.2 ὁμοίως διάκονοι ἄμεμπτοι κατενώπιον αὐτοῦ τῆς δικαιοσύνης ὡς θεοῦ καὶ Χριστοῦ διάκονοι καὶ οὐκ ἀνθρώπων· μὴ διάβολοι, μὴ δίλογοι, ἀφιλάργυροι, ἐγκρατεῖς περὶ πάντα, εὔσπλαγχνοι, ἐπιμελεὶς, πορευόμενοι κατὰ τὴν ἀλήθειαν τοῦ κυρίου, ὃς ἐγένετο διάκονος πάντων·

Pray for all the saints. Pray also for kings, 1 Timothy 2:2 and potentates, and princes, and for those that persecute and hate you, Matthew 5:44 and for the enemies of the cross, that your fruit may be manifest to all, and that you may be perfect in Him.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by Secret Alias » Mon May 18, 2020 8:34 am

Now let's take up the question of whether or not Polycarp is 'citing' 2 Timothy or whether Polycarp - as the author of 2 Timothy - might have been just expressing the same concerns both in his name and under a pseudonym:
2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him (συμβασιλεύσομεν). If we disown him, he will also disown us
Polycarp 5 καὶ ὅτι ἐὰν πολιτευσώμεθα ἀξίως αὐτοῦ, καὶ συμβασιλεύσομεν αὐτῷ, εἴγε πιστεύομεν
But see also 1 Corinthians so that we also might reign with you (συμβασιλεύσομεν).
2 Timothy 2:25 ἐν πραΰτητι παιδεύοντα τοὺς ἀντιδιατιθεμένους, μή ποτε δώῃ αὐτοῖς ὁ Θεὸς μετάνοιαν εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας,
Polycarp 11 Valde ergo, fratres, constristor pro illo et pro coniuge eius, quibus det dominus paenitentiam veram. Sobrii ergo estote et vos in hoc; et non sicut inimicos tales existimetis, sed sicut passibilia membra et errantia eos revocate, ut omnium vestrum corpus salvetis. Hoc enim agentes vos ipsos aedificatis.

I am deeply grieved, therefore, brethren, for him (Valens) and his wife; to whom may the Lord grant true repentance! And be then moderate in regard to this matter, and do not count such as enemies, 2 Thessalonians 3:15 but call them back as suffering and straying members, that you may save your whole body. For by so acting you shall edify yourselves. 1 Corinthians 12:26
No evidence of knowledge of 2 Timothy only the shared use of a word which appears in other Pauline letters.

Now 1 Timothy
1. But the love of money is the root of all evils (Ἀρχὴ δὲ πάντων χαλεπῶν φιλαργυρία). Knowing, therefore, that as we brought nothing into the world, so we can carry nothing out (εἰδότες οὖν ὅτι οὐδὲν εἰσηνέγκαμεν εἰς τὸν κόσμον (ἀλλ’ οὐδὲ ἐξενεγκεῖν τι ἔχομεν) let us arm ourselves with the armour of righteousness; Ephesians 6:11 and let us teach, first of all, ourselves to walk in the commandments of the Lord. Next, [teach] your wives [to walk] in the faith given to them, and in love and purity tenderly loving their own husbands in all truth, and loving all [others] equally in all chastity; and to train up their children in the knowledge and fear of God. Teach the widows to be discreet as respects the faith of the Lord, praying continually 1 Thessalonians 5:17 for all, being far from all slandering, evil-speaking, false-witnessing, love of money, and every kind of evil; knowing that they are the altar of God, that He clearly perceives all things, and that nothing is hid from Him, neither reasonings, nor reflections, nor any one of the secret things of the heart.

Ἀρχὴ δὲ πάντων χαλεπῶν φιλαργυρία. εἰδότες οὖν, ὅτι οὐδὲν εἰσηνέγκαμεν εἰς τὸν κόσμον, ἀλλ' οὐδὲ ἐξενεγκεῖν τι ἔχομεν, ὁπλισώμεθα τοῖς ὅπλοις τῆς δικαιοσύνης καὶ διδάξωμεν ἑαυτοὺς πρῶτον πορεύεσθαι ἐν τῇ ἐντολῇ τοῦ κυρίου

1 Timothy 6:10 ῥίζα γὰρ πάντων τῶν κακῶν ἐστιν ἡ φιλαργυρία
1 Timothy 6:7 οὐδὲν γὰρ εἰσηνέγκαμεν εἰς τὸν κόσμον, ὅτι οὐδὲ ἐξενεγκεῖν τι δυνάμεθα (For we brought anothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out)

2. Knowing, then, that God is not mocked, Galatians 6:7 we ought to walk worthy of His commandment and glory. In like manner should the deacons be blameless before the face of His righteousness, as being the servants of God and Christ, and not of men. They must not be slanderers, double-tongued, 1 Timothy 3:8 or lovers of money, but temperate in all things, compassionate, industrious, walking according to the truth of the Lord, who was the servant Matthew 20:28 of all.

Εἰδότες, οὖν ὅτι θεὸς οὐ μυκτηρίζεται, ὀφείλομεν ἀξίως τῆς ἐντολῆς αὐτοῦ καὶ δόξης περιπατεῖν. 2. ὁμοίως διάκονοι ἄμεμπτοι κατενώπιον αὐτοῦ τῆς δικαιοσύνης ὡς θεοῦ καὶ Χριστοῦ διάκονοι καὶ οὐκ ἀνθρώπων· μὴ διαβολοι, μὴ δίλογοι ἀφιλάργυροι, ἐγκρατεῖς περὶ πάντα, εὔσπλαγχνοι, ἐπιμελεῖς, πορευόμενοι κατὰ τὴν ἀλήθειαν τοῦ κυρίου, ὃς ἐγένετο διάκονος πάντων

3. Pray for all the saints. Pray also for kings, 1 Timothy 2:2 and potentates, and princes, and for those that persecute and hate you, Matthew 5:44 and for the enemies of the cross, that your fruit may be manifest to all, and that you may be perfect in Him.

4. Ἀδιαλείπτως οὖν προσκαρτερῶμεν τῇ ἐλπίδι ἡμῶν καὶ τῷ ἀρραβῶνι τῆς δικαιοσύνης ἡμῶν, ὅς ἐστι Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς

5. Teach the widows to be discreet as respects the faith of the Lord, praying continually 1 Thessalonians 5:17 for all, being far from all slandering, evil-speaking, false-witnessing, love of money, and every kind of evil

1 Timothy 5:5 The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help.
Here's what I think. People will probably disagree with me. But I think 1 Timothy was written after Polycarp died by someone who had either read to the Philippians or was aware of the kind of language and themes that appeared in Polycarp's orations and wanted to create a Pauline epistle which agreed with Polycarp.

I know this starts to sound like a broken record but that person has to be Irenaeus. Irenaeus after all named his major work after a saying from 1 Timothy. Polycarp is for all intents and purposes the 'face' of the Johannine tradition. Many of us doubt that 'John' who lived into the second century ever existed. Polycarp is the stand in for this alleged 'apostle.' The Marcionites clearly doubt that John wrote his gospel and if you follow the Timothy tradition (the Martyrdom and the Acts) they said that 'John' reshaped the canonical gospels. Our first witness for the fourfold gospel is Irenaeus. It was apparently opposed by Gaius and the Roman tradition at least initially.

If you look at Book 3 of Irenaeus's tome named from 1 Timothy you can see WHY reshaping an epistle in the name of Paul which echoes the language of Polycarp makes sense. Book Three begins with the traditional Roman understanding of the twin apostles founding the city:
We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar (1 Tim. 3. 15) of our faith. For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed "perfect knowledge," as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles. For, after our Lord rose from the dead, [the apostles] were invested with power from on high when the Holy Spirit came down [upon them], were filled from all [His gifts], and had perfect knowledge: they departed to the ends of the earth, preaching the glad tidings of the good things [sent] from God to us, and proclaiming the peace of heaven to men, who indeed do all equally and individually possess the Gospel of God. Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia.
The reference to 1 Timothy in the book named from another saying from 1 Timothy is significant. Irenaeus wants to show that all the apostles and 'apostolics' worked together being directed by one Holy Spirit. The mention of 'some apostles' having superior knowledge is a reflection of the secret gospel argument from Prescription Against Heresies.

Peter and Paul were originally together at Rome. The Roman audience would know that and boast of it. But little by little Irenaeus is introducing a second 'working together of apostles' - Paul and John at Ephesus. This is going to be critical because it effectively introduces an attempt to legitimize the gospel of John. Let's continue:
When, however, they (the heretics) are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but viva voce: wherefore also Paul declared, "But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world." And this wisdom each one of them alleges to be the fiction of his own inventing, forsooth; so that, according to their idea, the truth properly resides at one time in Valentinus, at another in Marcion, at another in Cerinthus, then afterwards in Basilides, or has even been indifferently in any other opponent, who could speak nothing pertaining to salvation. For every one of these men, being altogether of a perverse disposition, depraving the system of truth, is not ashamed to preach himself.
This is a difficult passage as the chapter begins with a positive reference to the viva voce arguments of Papias. Here however the 'living voice' strangely is rejected because the heretics link it to 1 Cor 2:6. I have always argued that the material here is connected with the 'secret gospel' argument of Prescription Against Heresies - that what appears earlier, namely the notion that Paul had superior knowledge and communicated that truth secretly through a text which was written after a gospel written in the name of the apostles had already been laid down is what is being reflected here.

In other words, everyone accepted Paul's connection with Peter at Rome. The Roman community used the gospel of Mark which as we know was written as a gospel of Peter. But what was disputed was a 'secret gospel' which came after the apostolic gospel(s) was/were established. The Roman gospel was originally one. Then two competing notions circulated about what happened next. The Roman community must have known or been aware of a 'secret gospel' in the rival Markan see of Alexandria. This must have been a disputed gospel because the Romans preferred a shorter text. The alternative scenario was the four gospels developed from the Johannine tradition where the gospel of John took the place of the 'more spiritual gospel.' The linking of Paul and John in Ephesus is the means by which the fourfold gospel was established.

Irenaeus begins by affirming what the Roman audience already knew - namely that Peter and Paul were established at Rome. Notice the use of the ending of 2 Timothy (probably added to a pre-existent document) to edify this understanding
Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority,(3) that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.

The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes.
The list of Roman bishops let's not forget comes from an individual who did not belong to the Roman see. This is important. 'Hegesippus' traveled to Rome from the East. He seems to have made a stop at Corinth before coming to Rome thus - strangely - giving context to the epistles of Clement.

Immediately after the episcopal list from Hegesippus is completed Irenaeus's narrative abruptly changes over to a statement about Polycarp:
But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time,--a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles,--that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within." And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Dost thou know me?" "I do know thee, the first-born of Satan." Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." (Epistle to Titus) There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles.
We are witnessing a weaving argument, one that winds like a river until it dumps its contents in the sea which is the introduction of the fourfold gospel in chapters 9 - 11. The connective tissue is Polycarp.

Irenaeus begins with Peter and Paul at Rome and by now in chapter 3 he has introduced a further nuance written in an age of high tension between the Roman Church and Asia Minor. Irenaeus posits the existence of another 'apostolic hub' at Ephesus - the place where it is alleged the original gospel of John written in the apostle's own hand is kept. Let's not forget that the canonical epistle to the Ephesians was originally to the Laodiceans. The epistle was then 'reformed' into a testimony of Paul establishing the Ephesian community or at least that Ephesus was a pre-eminent community. That wasn't always so. The Paul and the lion from the Acts of Paul is another testimony of this desire to link John and Paul. Notice also the appearance of the epistle to Titus squeezed into the argument which concludes:
Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles
In effect then, what Irenaeus is saying is that the tradition of Asia Minor is at once Pauline. As such 1 Timothy is clearly an effort to make Paul sound like the most pre-eminent Christian from Asia Minor - Polycarp.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by Secret Alias » Tue May 19, 2020 8:55 am

For those who are interested:

Irenaeus On the Detection and Overthrow of the So-Called Gnosis Book 1:

chapter 1 - statement of the four gospels as pillars, Peter and the gospel of Mark, Paul and the gospel of Luke
chapter 2 - against the secret gospel and those who falsely use Paul to further its establishment
chapter 3 - the Roman twin pillars of Peter and Paul and the Ephesian twin pillars of Paul and John
chapter 4 - only the Church preserves the true scriptures like money deposited in a bank
chapter 5 - more on the truth of the official scriptures vs the lies of the heresies
chapter 6 - the proof that Paul was like the other apostles in believing in only one god
chapter 7 - the heretical objection that 2 Cor 4.5 proves Paul was a dualist
chapter 8 - the heretical objection that Mark 12.17 proves the gospel was dualistic
chapter 9 - proof that the apostolic doctrine was monarchian - Matthew
chapter 10 - proof that the apostolic doctrine was monarchian - Mark and Luke
chapter 11 - proof that the apostolic doctrine was monarchian - John with a recapitulation that the gospel is in four
chapter 12 - proof that the apostolic doctrine was monarchian - Acts
chapter 13 - refutation that Paul was the gnostic apostle to counter the claim that he wrote a secret gospel
chapter 14 - Luke proves that Paul didn't write a secret gospel
chapter 15 - Luke proves that Paul was monarchian
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

davidmartin
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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by davidmartin » Tue May 19, 2020 2:59 pm

off topic but it's clear enough from Irenaeus that the major gnostic systems were attempting to explain 'church history' in their myth
they're saying there was some original, perfect church and then due to a mistake by a female leader the orthodox church sprang up. next various gnostics (Paul included and Marcion and Valentinus, etc) tried to correct this church back to the truth correcting the mistake
The Stauros aeon is the gospel of the cross preached by Paul for example

Where this flunks is the earliest 'gnostic' texts are not gnostic, lacking a demiurge and the material universe is good, so their claims to originality are as suspect as orthadoxy's claims! I recon everyone was trying to put their own understanding on things not really too bothered about the actual history

Charles Wilson
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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by Charles Wilson » Fri May 22, 2020 4:58 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:34 am
In other words, everyone accepted Paul's connection with Peter at Rome. The Roman community used the gospel of Mark which as we know was written as a gospel of Peter.
davidmartin wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 2:59 pm
they're saying there was some original, perfect church and then due to a mistake by a female leader the orthodox church sprang up.
I wish to thank both of you here for this. Stephan, what you are giving is the "Accepted History" of the Orthodox Church from circa 3rd Century-ish. Valentinism and the other Heretics have been rejected since the Heretics gave their Phony History and it has been found wanting some years later. Manufacturing a History with a Peter who would have been 80 - 100+ years old was easier to control. The events of the early "Real" Peter have been rewritten and hidden from view - the "Jesus walks on water" episode of Mark and Matthew come to mind - and any other discrepancies would be easy to rewrite.

David, yours is very interesting. "Female Leader" makes a mistake? I believe there were problems with what we may call "Others". After all, the New Religion must make the Uncircumcised Romans the Leaders and Controllers of this New Church. Thus, the Women have to go - ain't that always the case (Am I Moralizing here, Giuseppe?).

However, there is one interesting Case from History:

Jewish Encyclopedia, "Bilgah":

"According to a Talmudic tradition preserved in "Halakot Gedolot" (ed. Hildesheimer, p. 631), Bilgah was assigned to the group which officiated on the second and sixth days of the Feast of Tabernacles. The priests, when entering upon their duties, received their share in the northern part of the Tabernacle, because this was near the seat of their activity. The section assigned to each division of the priesthood was furnished with an iron ring fastened to the floor, for the purpose of securing the animal designed for slaughter, and there were accordingly twenty-four openings in the wall where the knives used for slaughtering were kept. Bilgah alone received his share in the south, his ring being nailed down, and his wall-closet tightly sealed, as a punishment for the apostasy of a woman of that house by the name of Miriam, who, during the Greek dominion under Antiochus Epiphanes, had denied her faith and married a hipparch (Tos., Suk. iv. 28; Suk. 56b; Yer. Suk., end; "Rev. Et. Juives," xxxix. 54). It is further related that when the Greeks forced their way into the Temple, this woman beat her sandals upon the altar, crying: "Wolf, wolf [Λύκος, λύκος], thou hast swallowed the substance of Israel, but hast deserted us in the day of our need!"

The Priesthood is Perfect, in your sense, David. Bilgah was guilty of a Transgression against the Priesthood and it was separated from the other 23 Groups with its Ring nailed down. Proceeding with 23 Groups messes up the Math so Bilgah was deprecated in the eyes of the Priesthood.

Thus:

John 1: 15 (RSV):

[15] (John bore witness to him, and cried, "This was he of whom I said, `He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.'")

Note that this is paralleled in Mark.
You are onto something here, David and it is important to the early NT Church, even if they must hide it.

Again, thanx to both of you.

CW

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