The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by Secret Alias » Tue May 12, 2020 3:16 pm

Timothy's name appears as the co-author on 2 Corinthians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, and Philemon.
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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by Secret Alias » Tue May 12, 2020 3:27 pm

Clement's (and related) exegesis on the meaning of the opening lines in Romans:
Romans 1.11 - In allusion to the gnostic edifice also in the Epistle to the Romans, he says, “For I desire to see you, that I may impart unto you a spiritual gift, that ye may be established.” [Rom. 1. 11] It was impossible that gifts of this sort could be written without disguise. (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 5.4)

Rom 1.11, 12, 17 - For, in fine, the agreement and harmony of the faith of both (i.e.teacher and scholar) contribute to one end—salvation. We have in the apostle an unerring witness: “For I desire to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, in order that ye may be strengthened; that is, that I may be comforted in you, by the mutual faith of you and me.” [Rom. 1. 11, 12] And further on again he adds, “The righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith.” [Rom. 1. 17] The apostle, then, manifestly announces a twofold faith, or rather one which admits of growth and perfection; for the common faith lies beneath as a foundation. To those, therefore, who desire to be healed, and are moved by faith, He added, “Thy faith hath saved thee.” (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 5.1)

Rom 1.16, 17 - (according to L. L. Welborn, Early Patristic Readings of Romans p 75 "t]o be sure, these identifications [of references to the Epistle to the Romans in Clement] have not been reflected consistently in translations or in the secondary literature. Thus in the translation included in vol. 2 of The Ante-Nicene Fathers, references to Rom. 1:16-17 are missing in Strom. 2.8.2, 2.53.5, and 2.126.3, although these allusions are crucial to the structure of Clement's arguments).

Rom 1.16 - "I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of god unto salvation to every one that beheveth; to the Jew, and to the Greek; for therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith" (Tertullian Against Marcion 5)

Rom 1.16 - Megethius: "Apostolus non dixit: Secundum euangelia mea, sed secundum euangelium meum." (Adamantius, Dialogue 1.6)

Rom 1.16 - Habeo uestrum codicem et lego ubi dicit apostolus quia Deus iudicabit occulta hominum secundum euangelium rneum per Iesum Christum. (Adamantius, Dialogue 2.5)

Rom 1.17 “Now the just shall live by faith,” [Rom. 1.17], etc. which is according to the covenant and the commandments; since these, which are two in name and time, given in accordance with the [divine] economy—being in power one—the old and the new, are dispensed through the Son by one God. As the apostle also says in the Epistle to the Romans, “For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith,” (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 2.6)
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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by Stuart » Tue May 12, 2020 4:10 pm

Clement maps to the attested Marcionite text for 1:16-17. verses 11-12 not attested, but do seem to be early strata. Price and Detering both thought so.

1:16 Οὐ γὰρ ἐπαισχύνομαι τὸ εὐαγγέλιον, δύναμις γὰρ θεοῦ ᾿στιν εἰς σωτηρίαν
For ~ not I am ashamed of the Gospel for ~ the power of God is Salvation
παντὶ τῷ πιστεύοντι Ἰουδαίῳ καὶ Ἕλληνι.
To everyone believing, Jew and Greek
1:17(a) δικαιοσύνη γὰρ θεοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ ἀποκαλύπτεται ἐκ πίστεως εἰς πίστιν,
For ~ in it ~ the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith

[ Tertullian, Adversus Marcionem 5.13.2, 'Non enim me pudet evangelii, virtus enim dei est in salutem omni credenti, Iudaeo et Graeco, quia iustitia dei in eo revelatur ex fide in fidem', for 1:16-17 lacking 'primum' as also B G it-G Ephraim. Likely πρῶτον was a proto-Orthodox addition as in 2:9, 2:10 for the special status of Jews, a per Romans 3:2, 9:4-5 et al. Habakkuk 2:4 LXX quote is an Orthodox addition not in Marcion. Also removed τε 'both' as Pastoral, even though this cannot be determined from the Latin, however evidence from 1243 א* delete τε.]
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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by davidmartin » Wed May 13, 2020 4:39 pm

what about the Acts of Timothy?

can't find it online atm

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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by Secret Alias » Wed May 13, 2020 4:59 pm

Acts of Timothy https://www.nasscal.com/e-clavis-christ ... f-timothy/ https://www.scribd.com/doc/122395839/Ap ... a-Timothei

Tommy Wasserman wrote a chapter he wrote on the AofT. I will see if I can link to it here.
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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by davidmartin » Thu May 14, 2020 1:44 am

well learnt something surprising lol
first i never realised Timothy was connected to Ephesus and John
secondly happened across the names of two of the apostle Philip's daughters who lived there also, Hermione and Eutychia. I thought those names were totally lost. No wonder the Montanists claimed a direct prophetic tradition huh
Anyway the Timothy/John connection is like the Paul/Peter one a unifying one highlighting the existence of three big branches, Pauls, Peters and Johns
Before this thread i assumed 1/2 Timothy were just church discipline style epistles without any kind of greater significance

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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by Secret Alias » Thu May 14, 2020 6:41 am

There's always so much to learn. The important thing for me is that the apostolic history very much resembles the Marvel comics universe. There's Spiderman who's Peter Parker who has two 'companions' - Mary Jane and Gwen Stacey and his best friend is Harry Osborne who sometimes becomes the Green Goblin and so on. In other words, just because we hear that there is this person and that doesn't mean it is historically true (I've always thought there is a better mythicist argument for Acts and the material added to the Pauline Epistles than with the gospel per se). But perhaps the example of Superman is closer to the mark. 'Superman' isn't even a comic book hero. The Übermensch was an idealized philosophical ideal which made its literary introduction in Nietzsche's 1883 book Also sprach Zarathustra. The Übermensch - like ΙΣ - was developed as a goal for humanity to set for itself. Also spracht Zarathustra like the gospel is a work of philosophical allegory, but with a structural similarity to the Gathas of Zoroaster (= Zarathustra). I don't know what style the gospel was originally written to emulate. I am lost there. But my point is that even though Paul was clearly a historical person (he is the author of the ur-gospel and thus had to have existed) and even though Paul mentioned at least two disciples in the earliest or most original version of his correspondences - Timothy and Silvanus - eventually Paul was the subject of fictitious writings. Acts of the Apostles is a romance. If there is historical truths it was gleaned from the earliest edition of the Pauline letters. There is a whole heap of fictitious characters added to the Pauline letters (so Megetheus) and later Acts.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by Secret Alias » Thu May 14, 2020 9:27 am

It is also worth remembering that there was an important document called the Acts of Paul which were accepted by a large number of Church Fathers (Tertullian, Hippolytus). The Acts of Paul demonstrate that the Pastorals were somewhat controversial even within what we presume to be the 'orthodox' community. Den Dulk notices for instance that a tension exists between 1 Tim 2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet" and the parallel addition to 1 Corinthians and the Acts of Paul.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23253682?seq=1
Aside from their attitudes toward women apostles Den Dulk notes "This is one of many ways in which the depiction of Paul in the PE (Pastoral Epistles) is substantively different from the Paul of the API (Acts of Paul). Their views of church hierarchy, marriage, procreation and a number of other issues are similarly diverging. These stark differences between the PE and the API make the shared elements all the more striking; many of the same localities and personal names appear in both as does the same "false teaching" that the resurrection has aleady occured. The question before us, then is how we are to reconcile the obvious disparities in ideology between the API and the PE with the observation that they have a significant number of particulars in common.
Timothy does not appear in the Acts of Paul as far as I know. Den Dulk continues:
In what follows this paper will demostrate that the API agrees with 2 Tim in many respects. 2 Tim contains virtually all of the personal and place names which the PE and the API share. Additionally very few if any of the precents found in 2 Tim stand in tension with the API. In stark contrast many of the notions promulgated by 1 Tim and Tit conflict with Paul's activities and teachings in the API. The ensuing analysis will strengthen the argument that the author of the API used the PE as a source. Furthermore this article will suggest that the author of the API did not in all likelihood regard 1 Tim as an authorative Pauline missive and that the author of the API interacted with the PE extensively in order to commend and perpetuate the portrait of Paul presented in 2 Tim over and against the image of Paul in 1 Tim.
Again:
The first chapter of 1 Tim does not contain much that would have necessarily grasped the attention of the author of the API. As soon as we turn to chapter 2, however this changes: "First of all then I urge that supplications prayers intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men for kings and all who are in high positions that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life (1 Tim 2:1 -2)" In the API the position vis-a-vis secular authorities is quite different from what we find here. Paul (and Thecla) are arrested and create public uproar in almost every city they visit (cf. API 3:17 - 22; 4:1 - 39; 6:5; 9:11 - 26). It would therefore seem improbable that the Presbyter shared the ideal of a "quiet and peaceable life." Indeed in the API the "quiet and peaceful life" is lived by the unbelievers (cf API 3:13 [Thamyris], 4.1 [Alexander] before the apostle comes along to radically alter the lives of everyone involved. The "quiet and peaceable life" is the opposite of the life that the apostle leads.
Again:
In the second chapter (1 Tim 2:8 - 10) a distinction between men and women is introduced. Whereas the Pastor wants men to pray "lifting holy hand" women should "adorn themselves modestly, sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire as befits women who by good deeds profess godliness." In the API however Thecla a woman is portrayed as praying with her hands stretched out (API 4:9) and instead of following 1 Tim's command to adorn herself "in seemly apparel" she is said to have "sewed a mantle into a cloak after the fashion of men (API 3:25). Moreover in API 3:25 Thecla says "I will cut my hair short." These details suggest that the Presbyter would have had some reservations to say the least about the teachings put forth in these verses of 1 Tim.

The immediately following section 1 Tim 2:11 - 15 would have been even more strongly protested by the author of the Acts "Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children if she continues in faith and love and holiness with modesty. This pericope stands in direct opposition to API 4:16 where Paul commands Thecla to "go and teach the word of God!" as we noted in the introduction. Although Thecla begins as a girl who learns silence (API 3:7) she eventually becomes an independent female apostle in her own right - precisely the kind of woman that the Pastor seems to have found intolerable. It is also notable that the author of 1 Tim depicts "the woman" rather negatively, portraying her as a transgressor in accordance with the archetype of Eve in this section. There is no comparable negative characterization of women in the API. In fact women usually join Paul and Thecla's side in the API (eg 3:7, 4:2-3) which men frequently oppose them (cf. 3:11 - 16, 4:1 - 3; 5:2; 9:16, 18). Women are not regarded as necessarily in league with sinful Eve. Rather as one recent interpreter argues, Thecla is depicted as the anti-type of Eve.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by Secret Alias » Thu May 14, 2020 9:55 am

I am wondering whether 2 Timothy and the Acts of Paul might have been written first and 1 Timothy later almost as a reframing of 2 Tim.
The language and ideas of this epistle are notably different from the other two Pastoral letters yet similar to the later Pauline letters, especially the ones he wrote in captivity. This has led some scholars to conclude that the author of 2 Timothy is a different person from 1 Timothy and Titus. Raymond E. Brown proposed that this letter was written by a follower of Paul who had knowledge of Paul's last days.
I wonder how we would KNOW that 2 Timothy might have been written before 1 Timothy.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: The Pre-Existent Marcionite Interest in Timothy

Post by Secret Alias » Thu May 14, 2020 11:29 am

More from the article:
Finally the notion of salvation through childbearing is completely foreign to the API, where Paul's kerygma is summarized as "the word of God concerning continence and resurrection (API 3:5) and where the avoidance of sexual relations is a constantly recurring topic (eg 3:6 - 7). Thecla herself is a prime example of a woman who is saved even though she does not bear children. Some scholars who have questioned the degree to which the API is encratic have pointed to the presence of married couples in the API, especially Onesiphorus and Lectra (API 3:2). Marriage, however did not necessarily imply conjugal relations in the early church and more importantly the leading characters of the story Paul and Thecla as well as the majority of the supporting actors are clear advocates of sexual continence not only by personal example but through their teaching. Perhaps the most important passage describing how the Presbyter regarded marriage is found in API 3:5 where Paul pronounces a macarism on those who "have wives as though not having them" (cf. 1 Cor 7:29). While not condemning marriage outright the statement is a far cry from 1 Tim 2:15 where childbirth and ipso facto sexual relations are made into a requirement for a woman's salvation.
And again:
Continuing in chapter 3 the Pastor lists a number of prerequisites for church leaders. While 1 Tim envisions a clear church hierarchy there are no references to church offices in the API outside of 3 Cor (API 10). Moreover many of the requirements for church leaders would certainly not have been shared by the author of the API. Especially problematic from the Presbyter's perspective is the requirement that a church leader be "the husband of one wife" (3:2) which assumes that these leaders must be married men, and furthermore that they be fathers (cf. 3.4 "keeping his children submissive"). Similarly the claim that a potential leader "must be well thought by outsiders" (3.7) seems at odds with the position of the API which relates constant conflict with outsiders. A point of agreement may be found in 1 Tim 3:11 where the author states "The women likewise must be serious not slanderers but temperate faithful in all things." Scholars have been divided over whether these "women" are the wives of the deacons or are themselves deacons. It is difficult to ascertain how the Presbyter might have read this text. If the women were understood to be deacons in their own right this passage would mark a rare point of convergence between the API and 1 Tim. However this deaconship would still be a rather circumscribed leadership role given that 1 Tim does not allow women to teach (2:11).

Any possible agreement find its end at 1 Tim 4:3 where the author describes (some of) his opponents as people who "hinder marriage and abstain from foods". One may surmise a direct polemic here against a direct polemic here against a group similar to the one to which the Presbyter belonged. It is easy to see how Paul's preaching of continence (API 3:5; cf 3:6 - 7, 11) in the API could be construed as the "hindering of marriage." In fact, API 3:11 Paul's opponent Thamyris characterizes Paul's activities precisely as such when he accuses Paul of "deceiving virgins in order that they might not get married). There are likewise indications in the text of the API that Paul was "abstaining from foods." In API 3:25 Paul is reported to have eaten bread and vegetables an unremarkable dietary choice except for the fact that he consumes said items in a setting strongly reminiscent of the multiplication miracle of the canonical gospels. Paul and his company have five loaves (cf Mk 6:4; Mat 14:17; Luke 9:13; John 6:9) given to them by a boy (API 3:23; cf John 6:9). Considering the similarities of the situation the possibility that Paul intentionally ate vegetables instead of fish mentioned in the gospels arises. As we shall soon argue the apocryphal Paul also seems to have avoided alcohol which strengthens this line of interpretation gven that some other teetotaling early Christians also avoided meat.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Thu May 14, 2020 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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