How "Synagogues" judaize a mythicist Logion

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Re: How "Synagogues" judaize a mythicist Logion

Post by Giuseppe »

When the Risen Jesus shows his wounds, it is not to prove that he is risen, but to prove that the following two claims are not mutually exclusive:
  • He is the Jewish Christ;
  • He is crucified.
The point is that Paul also shared a similar interest:

...but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles

(1 Corinthians 1:23)

Hence, the great obstacle who prevented the Jews from accepting Jesus as the Christ was his crucifixion.

An earthly crucifixion could make it more easy, for them, to accept the idea that Jesus was the Jewish Christ: afterall, the Jewish Christ had to be a mortal.

A recent life in the earth could make it more easy, for them, to accept the idea that Jesus was the Jewish Christ: afterall, the Jewish Christ was expected to life "in the last times".

But Paul didn't show a mortal Jesus lived recently on earth, even if, by mentioning a mortal Jesus lived recently on earth, he could make it more easy for the Jews accept the idea that Jesus was the Jewish Christ.

Hence this is one of the best proofs that Paul placed still his Jesus in outer space.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: How "Synagogues" judaize a mythicist Logion

Post by Giuseppe »


And in one place, Moses writes, "He [=YHWH] made the devil a serpent for those whom he has in his generation"

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/testruth.html

Why did the Gnostics call the Serpent "Joshua"?

I see the following similarities between the OT Joshua and the Serpent:
  • Both were exalted by Moses as superior compared to Moses:
    • Joshua was designed by Moses as his successor;
    • Numbers 21:9
      So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

  • Both entered in a special place related to the Creator:
    • The Serpent (considered as a saviour sent from the Good God) entered first (from out) in the Eden of the Creator
    • The OT Joshua (considered as a patriarch sent by YHWH) entered first (from out) in the Promised Land
  • Both gave a fruit to eat from a tree of property of another:
    • The Serpent gave the apple to eat from the tree of property of the creator;
    • Joshua gave a lot to eat (Joshua 24:13):
      And I have given you a land for which ye did not labour, and cities which ye built not, and ye dwell in them; of the vineyards and oliveyards which ye planted not do ye eat.

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: How "Synagogues" judaize a mythicist Logion

Post by Giuseppe »

The demonic Archons of 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 are euhemerized in the Gospels as Pharisees, more than as Romans.

If Jesus expels little demons only from Galileans, then this means that in Judea, and particularly among sinedrites, the powerful Archons work still behind the sinedrites. They are inside them. Jesus never exorcizes them.

Why this particular choice by the evangelists? Because the Pharisees were already known to be enemies of the Gnostics.

When Jesus was described in the Gospels as the Jewish Christ, then this invented Jesus called Christ inherited the same enemies of the Gnostic "Jesus Son of Father" ("Bar-Abbas").

It is curious that the little demons possessing the Galileans are able to recognize Jesus but they are unable to kill him, whereas the Archons possessing the sinedrites are unable to recognize Jesus but they are totally able to kill him.

The reason is that the little demons possessing the Galileans are designed to represent the demons possessing the gentile Gnostics: the only people who were able (in the real past), but only in virtue of the demons possessing them (in the fiction), to recognize the real origin of the Gnostic "Jesus Son of Father" ("Bar-Abbas").
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: How "Synagogues" judaize a mythicist Logion

Post by Giuseppe »

THe following Mark's passage, removed from various Judaizing interpolations, is directly derived from the Naassene hymn:

In those days,
as there was a great crowd,
without anything to eat,
he called the disciples
and said to them:

"I have compassion for the crowd
because they have nothing to eat,
and if I send them away fasting,
they will faint on the way".

His disciples replied:
"How can they be satisfied?"

He asked them: "How many loaves do you have?"

they said: "Seven".

He took the seven loaves,
and after saying the thanksgiving,
he broke them,
and gave them to his disciples to distribute
and they distributed them to the crowd.
They ate and were satisfied,
and he sent them away.

Same universal, intemporal and unlocalized prose of the Naassene Hymn. The hero here is Jesus Son of Father ("Bar-Abbas"), still not "Jesus called Christ".

The "seven loaves" served as Gnostic magical passwords to go beyond the 7 Archontic Gate-keepers. Directly to pleroma.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: How "Synagogues" judaize a mythicist Logion

Post by Giuseppe »

I have answered so to Neil:

There are several reasons to think that the earliest Jesus myth is the most obvious orthodox one: that Jesus came from heaven, was crucified on earth, descended beneath the earth, then ascended back to heaven.

I invite you to review this position. Particularly, in light of the fact that, from the POV of Paul, it would have been very helpful, to make Jews accept that his crucified Jesus was THEIR Christ, to specify that he had lived ON EARTH.

The basic assumption here is that a Jesus lived on earth is MORE a "JEWISH Messiah" than a Jesus not lived on earth.

The silence of Paul about a point on which he had an interest in specifying confirms that his Jesus was placed by him in heaven. Not on earth.

Just as a victorious Messiah sounds MORE Jewish than a crucified Messiah, so, in virtue of the same reason, an earthly Messiah has to sound by need MORE Jewish than an outer-space Messiah. Hence, the silence of Paul about the place is a strong argument supporting the celestial crucifixion in outer space.

ADDENDA:
JesusHis degree of Jewishness (=how much a Jew would have accepted Jesus as THE Christ)
victorious on the Romans1
lived on earth2
davidic3
born by woman4
born under the law5
killed by Romans 6

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: How "Synagogues" judaize a mythicist Logion

Post by Giuseppe »

I think that Ascension of Isaiah is very early, but not so early. The Naassene Hymn is even more old than AoI. Note the similarity, but also the difference:

Wherefore, send me, O Father!
Seals in my hands, I will descend;
Through Æons universal will I make a Path;
Through Mysteries all I'll open up a Way!
And Forms of Gods will I display;
The secrets of the Holy Path I will hand on,
And call them Gnosis.

A possibility is that in the Naassene Hymn, Jesus will display the FORMS of Gods, probably Archons, to reveal their real evil nature, while in the AoI, Jesus assumes the FORMS of the Angels of each heaven, to mask his own real divine nature, the exact contrary of a revelation. Since the author of AoI didn't like (as expected by any sincere Judaizer) the fact that the Naassenes hated YHWH as evil demiurge, a possibility is that the secrecy was meant to mask the revelatory character of the descensus in the Naassene Hymn.

At any case, what is already in evidence beyond any doubt is that both the Naassene Hymn and the AoI share the theme of the angelic FORMS shown/assumed by the Son during the descensus.

ADDENDA:

The revelation of the FORMS of the Gods could have a heuristic function. Something as: I make visible what was invisible, so the souls of the saved people, during their ascension through the celestial spheres, can recognize where the Archons are lurking, between heaven and heaven, and so evade their surveillance to return to Pleroma.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: How "Synagogues" judaize a mythicist Logion

Post by Giuseppe »

In the light of the point made above, by reading again Dykstra's interpretation of the Messianic Secret in Mark, I infer that it is pure Judaization in action:

The Messianic Secret
In the Gospel of Mark, Jesus goes around preaching to everyone who will listen, in some cases to thousands at a time, and yet paradoxically, almost every time he heals someone he warns them not to make his identity known to anyone. He gives his disciples the same command immediately after the Transfiguration (9:9). Many explanations for this have been advanced, all of which are problematic in one way or another. It is the context of Paul's struggle to keep focus on the cross and crucifixion that best makes sense of the commands to secrecy. All of these commands are issued before Christ's passion. Mark's point is that the weakness of the crucifixion is what seals Christ's identity for all of his followers, not the power revealed in miracles and healings. Christ himself does not claim to be the messiah who will come in glory in the future, until he is in the midst of suffering his passion. Or, to put it another way, the message of Christ must be kept secret until it can be properly understood, until the true basis of his Messiahship is revealed.

(extract from Mark Canonizer of Paul, my bold)

I have learned the Mark's lesson:

what has to persuade you that Jesus is the Jewish Christ is not, or not only, his miracles x, y, z, his earthly life, his davidic nature, his mortal nature, his fulfilling of OT prophecies, but only and especially: his crucifixion.

What better evidence than this, for the claim that the crucifixion was considered as the not-Jewish thing par-excellence ?

Bart Ehrman would answer that this proves that Jesus existed.

I would answer that this proves that Jesus Son of Unknown Father ("Bar-Abbas"), the original victim of the celestial crucifixion in outer space, never existed.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
perseusomega9
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Re: How "Synagogues" judaize a mythicist Logion

Post by perseusomega9 »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 12:39 am Try to remove 'Synagogues' from Luke 12:11-12 and you gain a mythicist Logion:

“When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.”

or there was animosity between christians and jews in Luke's day :roll:
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe
Giuseppe
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Re: How "Synagogues" judaize a mythicist Logion

Post by Giuseppe »

perseusomega9 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 5:26 am
Giuseppe wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 12:39 am Try to remove 'Synagogues' from Luke 12:11-12 and you gain a mythicist Logion:

“When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.”

or there was animosity between christians and jews in Luke's day :roll:
In that case you have to explain the very strange coincidence of Luke 24:20:
The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him;

...where also, by removing the "chief priests", the verse can be easily placed in a context of a celestial crucifixion in outer space.


I doubt you can explain that "very strange coincidence", since it is not at all a coincidence, but judaization in action.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: How "Synagogues" judaize a mythicist Logion

Post by Giuseppe »

Note that also in Romans 13:1-7, Bob Price docet, the "Archons" are not Romans, but the demonic Archons, recognized by YHWH in their role of celestial Gate-Keepers (meaning of Pylatis in Greek) to which the souls have to give the right magical formulas to return to Pleroma.

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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