Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Chris Hansen
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by Chris Hansen » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:31 am

Should I just refer to you as Giuseppe? If you would like to private message me something else, I'm fine with that too! Thank you for the help!

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Giuseppe
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:13 am

Chris Hansen wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:31 am
Should I just refer to you as Giuseppe? If you would like to private message me something else, I'm fine with that too! Thank you for the help!
if you like, you can refer me as Giuseppe Ferri.

I am the same Giuseppe who probably is talking with you on Vridar. There I am explaining my reasons for assuming a celestial crucifixion in Paul (but the paternity of the idea is not mine, I am only resuming the views of French mythicists in particular).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Chris Hansen
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by Chris Hansen » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:17 am

Ya that is me. Sorry for the name difference lol, I occasionally have pen names online just because I've had an unfortunate history with angry mythicists attempting to get me in trouble (had to explain things to a few professors once because an upset mythicist attempted to misconstrue things and cause trouble where I was at school). The unfortunate nature of this debate is that it is all too often heated and dogmatic.

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by neilgodfrey » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:01 am

Hi Giuseppe. You wrote:
René Salm has read only few photocopies of his book, for his same admission, but I have his entire book on the Mandeans, and he says expressly how Jesus was invented when he talks about the Christian origins.
Do you know where one can purchase or borrow Stahl's book?

Salm cites page 160 in support of his statement that Stahl was not a mythicist. Are you able to tell us what is on that page that might have led Salm to say what he did?

Thanks,
Neil
vridar.org Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science

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Giuseppe
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:20 am

neilgodfrey wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:01 am
Salm cites page 160 in support of his statement that Stahl was not a mythicist. Are you able to tell us what is on that page that might have led Salm to say what he did?
in p. 160 of my book, Stahl has just concluded his argument from silence that John the Baptist was unknown to Paul and early Christians. Hence he starts to ask how John could become the one who, "by his baptism, gives to Jesus his consacration of Messiah". Then he explains that the Jews waited a King-Messiah i.e. a king "anointed" and as corollary an "anointer" was necessary, beyond if priest or prophet. So, as David was anointed by the prophet Samuel, Jesus had to be anointed by John.

Effectively it is necessary to know the rest of the book where Stahl describes where he finds a pre-christian marginal figure (not historical) of an eschatological crucified Jesus in the Book of Revelation. I have described these Stahl's arguments about Revelation here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6934&p=109221&hilit ... ed#p109216
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:28 am

neilgodfrey wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:01 am
Do you know where one can purchase or borrow Stahl's book?
I can easily digitalize the physical book and send it to you.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Chris Hansen
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by Chris Hansen » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:14 am

JSYK, a new update will be uploaded soon with the sources you brought to my attention.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:38 am

Hi Chris,
While I am satisfied about how you describe elegantly Magne's case (I see that you are particularly able to synthetize cases, surely something shared with Carrier), I don't like the way you resume the Stahl/Couchoud's article. In my view, you should refer explicitly that, according to them, the Gospel Barabbas is a Jewish-Christian parody of the "Jesus Son of Father" ("Jesus Bar-Abbas") adored by Marcion, reduced, by that name, to a rebel and criminal.

In addition , I don't see references to another relatively famous French mythicist, J. K. Watson, author of: Le Christianisme avant Jésus-Christ : Préhistoire et formation de la religion chrétienne, 1988. He shares with Doherty the celestial crucifixion in Paul, Hebrews and in the apologists.
Last edited by Giuseppe on Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:45 am

I would add also André Wautier. He is historicist about the Gospels but he is mythicist about Paul. In the French blogosfera his name is often mentioned.
http://hierosolis.overblog.com/comment- ... a.-wautier

All the mentioned authors are based on the Stahl/Couchoud's article mentioned above. Hence my enormous wonder and scandal and embarrassment for Robert Price's indifference about that article. Something I can't never forgive him for.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Chris Hansen
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by Chris Hansen » Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:07 pm

I may leave Wautier out, since he isn't a mythicist, and (as I noted in the introduction of my book) I'm trying to focus more so on physical publications, unless absolutely unavoidable. I think another book may be warranted (by someone in the future) on mythicism in the online blogosfera.

And I will definitely make sure to edit that bit on Stahl-Couchoud's work.

I'll make sure to get J. K. Watson in there as well (I'll see if I can buy a copy of his work and give it a read, luckily my French isn't that bad after doing some practice again).

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