Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Chris Hansen
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by Chris Hansen » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:52 am

Yeah, but the AoI isn't the same kind of text or of the same community as the Valentinians. So it isn't exactly damaging my point at all. The AoI is not separationist like the Valentinians clearly were (believing in an earthly Jesus who was inhabited by the Christ until the point of suffering, upon which they, because it is dualist, have parallel sufferings on Earth and in Heaven respectively).

The AoI has Jesus come directly down to the world, and that is because it actually follows more Pauline tradition and actively makes use of Paul, as Dochhorn's cosmological analysis of the text has found.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:57 am

But you have claimed that parallelism is a direct implication of dualism.

I see that there is parallelism in AoI at least in 7:10.

Accordingly, if you deny that AoI is a dualistic text, then you have to deny that parallelism derives from dualism.

Chris Hansen
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by Chris Hansen » Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:31 am

I don't think AoI is dualist. You are taking a passage out of context. The "so above so below" is a reference to the battles of angels and powers in the firmament, which is paralleled by the fighting of humans in the world. It is not a reference to the heavens but how the forces of evil, the fallen of Samael, control the rulers and powers on Earth and thus, as there is fighting in the firmament there is fighting on Earth. This is not dualistic in any related Valentinian sense. You should read the whole of 7:1-12. Here it is Samael who is to blame for these events occurring, and it is a direct influence he has over the Earth. It is not a dualism.

This is why the descent of Christ to Earth makes the most sense. Christ is redeeming us of those powers, and so has to descend to the earth itself, not just the firmament. This is why Carrier's views don't work, he doesn't understand the cosmology, and the dualistic idea just does not work here.

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by neilgodfrey » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:51 pm

Chris Hansen wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:33 am
As I have noted in my chapter on demographic correlations, none of these have been tested. My entire point in drawing correlations is for there to be more sociological research (as I am currently aware of an academic who wishes to do a sociological study of mythicism, and so has specifically asked me to take note of these correlations). Regardless, I have specifically noted these are just correlations, and that mythicism likely has numerous reasons for its appeal and acceptance.

I will take note and make adjustments to the opening per your critiques though. Thank you Neil.
I don't know what your adjustments might involve but just for the record I do note that several others both in print and online have correlated my "cult" years with my so-called "mythicism" yet they have not taken the trouble to interview me at any time. They all seem to rely on an almost tendentiously selective "correlation" made originally by the Casey-Hoffmann-Fisher trio some years back. Yes, I was in a cult, but I "reacted" against that by returning to mainstream liberal Christianity, -- like the more liberal wings of Methodist, church of christ, baptists, anglicans. Correlations are easy to come by when one "knows" what one is looking for in advance. (The same trio, incidentally, demonstrated no awareness of serious anthropological or sociological or psychological studies of the reasons people join and leave cults, either, by the way, but merely repeated popular notions uncritically.)

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by neilgodfrey » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:05 pm

Chris, or should I address you as Vander Snatch, the name you use when commenting on Vridar. Can you explain why you wrote:
and how you also misrepresented Chris Hansen through cherry picked quotes that you excised from context, and then tried defending it by “context doesn’t really matter here” even though it does because he actually contradicts the point you claim he was making.

You are just as rude and insulting as the lot of them. You just do it by slandering and misrepresenting people you don’t like. Also, pardon because I have yet to see you have a single critical thing to offer at all. Practically everything you’ve offered seems to just parroting of any minimalist you can find.

Also, why would he engage in discussions with petty people who spend their time misrepresenting anyone they don’t like on their wordpress blogs?
You surely know I did not say "context doesn't really matter here" and have never even inferred that. Rather than misrepresent you, I presented to you how your statements appeared in context in a forum where you have the freedom to comment and explain.

Saying different things in different places of a book (without explanation in the direct context of the statements) leaves a reader confused at best and wondering if the author him/herself is confused or duplicitous. If you believe I have slandered or misrepresented anyone then be specific and let me apologize and correct anything I have written.

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by neilgodfrey » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:09 pm

to do a sociological study of mythicism
To see how a serious sociological study is done in the field of religious ideas see
  • Malley, Brian. 2004. How the Bible Works: An Anthropological Study of Evangelical Biblicism. New York: Altamira Press.

Chris Hansen
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by Chris Hansen » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:50 am

I've already gone over all of this before:
-------------------
"This debate has been rather prominent in modern literature, for a variety of reasons. It is primarily relegated to atheists and antitheists (though there are some religious exceptions) who have made it a point to try and disprove Christianity with one argument to end all arguments: that the very savior that Christians around the world believe in never existed at all. In this regard, some have taken the CMT to be nothing but that of radicals who have been polarized by religious upbringing and disillusionment from their former faith. In some cases, this can definitely be said to be the case, as David Fitzgerald’s bias about Christian scholars and biblical studies shows especially in the first volume of his series Jesus: Mything in Action. However, it is apparent that there are also academics who have taken it based on their own findings, not out of a desire to disprove their previously held religion, though they are still usually functioning under an atheist position and, often, publishing in atheist/secularist presses."
--------------------
1) This is primarily relegated to antichristians or at the very least anti-orthodox Christian reaction and has almost always been. Arthur Drews, the USSR, the People's Republic of China, Kotoku Shusui, the earliest deists who promoted the view in the 1600's onward, the Deutscher Monistenbund (the exception kinda, sorta being Kalthoff, but even his goal with the Monist league was to replace Christianity), American Atheist (especially the press under Zindler), Atheist United (which funded Carrier's books), Hypatia Press (which is publishing Loftus' varieties of mythicism), Prometheus Books (a secularist press founded by Kurtz, who was a noted philosopher trying to disprove Christianity who, just so happened, to actively call into question Jesus' existence in his books too), Michael Martin and Raphael Lataster (philosophers of religion who have adamantly held to mythicist/agnostic stances and expounded upon them in their works to disprove Christianity, see Martin's Case Against Christianity and Lataster's PhD Thesis). Today, the vast majority of mythicists are found in places with an antichristian agenda.

You are right in your previous post that it does not disprove Christianity outright (Thomas L. Brodie is proof of this). But it does disprove orthodoxic Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, and Roman Catholic Christianity, which is what the vast majority of people are contending against. They aren't contending against the Brodie's of the world.

As for Fisher, Casey, and Hoffmann, as demonstrated above I disavow literally in the next sentence the conclusion that mythicists/agnostics are just reactionaries responding to Christianity ("some have taken the CMT to be nothing but that of radicals who have been polarized by religious upbringing and disillusionment from their former faith.")

Next, since you are also so interested in my personal reasons for putting my harsher critiques under a different name:

(A) Because mythicists have actively attempted hurting my personal life by doxing me and attempting to disrupt my education.
(B) Because my local atheist community actually removed my membership because I was not a mythicist (and I know of others who have had this don against them as well).
(C) Because any time I make a negative comment calling someone out, I get lambasted half across the internet and then have to explain to various people reading this material what was going on.
(D) Because my work gets misconstrued for usage/rebuttal by apologists and mythicists/agnostics alike.
(E) Because I had to file a police report because a mythicist threatened to track me down and attack me for banning them from a FaceBook group.

This is likewise why I was going under a pen name for Loftus' volume. I was "PC Emery" writing the history of mythicism (and you can confirm that with Bob Price or with Loftus, or the publisher). I pulled my chapter after Bob's recent transphobic, Islamaphobic, and sexist comments were made, because frankly I don't need my work to be associated with that crap.

So yes, I have gone under different names on Vridar to avoid the crap that goes my way. But shame on me for having fear for my own livelihood after being threatened (which I have receipts of, btw, and am more than willing to email them to you).

2) I never said I was doing a sociological study (if that is what you are implying by the once again cut-off cherry picked fragment) nor do I have intentions to do so. In fact, after this book I have no intentions on ever engaging in this debate again, and plan on fully leaving behind mythicism and the Bible entirely, because frankly I'm beginning to see it as a waste of time. It has had demonstrably negative affects on my life, so I'm done after this.

But I get this is what happens when I try to make a book where my central thesis is that mythicism should be taken seriously and not handwaved. I get misconstrued, misrepresented, and lambasted for trying to protect my identity and for... noting ostensibly verifiable correlations.

3) Thanks for the suggestion but I also already have that book, have read it, and yes thought it was excellent.

Frankly, though I must thank you for your comment on there that I am a "troubled soul". Because yes, I am. Thanks for making it clear to me that I really don't belong here discussing the Bible anymore. It explained a lot and really demonstrated clearly to me that I should move on to things I actually enjoy and love doing, like creative writing and editing.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:37 pm

Chris Hansen wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:50 am
Bob's recent transphobic, Islamaphobic, and sexist comments
really? Bob Price?

Chris Hansen
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by Chris Hansen » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:58 pm

Yeup. He said that trasngender people had a disorder akin to a body dismorphia where they just want to "mutilate" their own body, and then further said that the "feminizing of young boys" was "softening ourselves up for the kill" which he clarified was from "Islam" (i.e. people of color from the Middle East, because he has a problem with immigrants too).

Anyways, the recent few weeks have made me decide I'm probably completely done with everything to do with the Bible and mythicism after my book is finished and published. I feel like the debates could be productive, but not with the horrific rhetoric (which I won't deny I have been a part of, which I hate and is another reason I won't be returning to it) and toxic individuals that get upheld in it.

I'm done here now. I won't be returning messages, inquiries, or really anything on any issue related to Jesus, mythicism, the Bible, etc. at this point. Time to move to a phase of my life that doesn't include this horrid mess that people call a "debate."

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Quest of the mythical Jesus available online

Post by neilgodfrey » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:14 pm

Chris Hansen wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:50 am
I've already gone over all of this before:
-------------------
"This debate has been rather prominent in modern literature, for a variety of reasons. It is primarily relegated to atheists and antitheists (though there are some religious exceptions) who have made it a point to try and disprove Christianity with one argument to end all arguments: that the very savior that Christians around the world believe in never existed at all. In this regard, some have taken the CMT to be nothing but that of radicals who have been polarized by religious upbringing and disillusionment from their former faith. In some cases, this can definitely be said to be the case, as David Fitzgerald’s bias about Christian scholars and biblical studies shows especially in the first volume of his series Jesus: Mything in Action. However, it is apparent that there are also academics who have taken it based on their own findings, not out of a desire to disprove their previously held religion, though they are still usually functioning under an atheist position and, often, publishing in atheist/secularist presses."
--------------------
1) This is primarily relegated to antichristians or at the very least anti-orthodox Christian reaction and has almost always been.
Chris Hansen/Vander Snatch -- your thinking is very confused. You muddle different concept into one. This leads you to confusing correlations with motives, and to assume certain arguments are corrupt for invalid reasons.

But you are clearly two-faced. Presenting one face on one venue and another somewhere else, saying one thing on one page and something else on another .... yes, you are indeed a very confused person. Fundamental logical principles seem wanting. You can make a great career among orthodox biblical scholars, I think.

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