Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Chris Hansen
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by Chris Hansen » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:58 pm

Ken Olson wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:19 pm
Chris Hansen wrote:
I don't think it is necessary to burn their books. But if they get cited, they get cited ethically: with full awareness and statements of what they did.
In my work on the Testimonium Flavianum, I want to cite Richard Pervo on Gamaliel's speech in Acts. Against Serge Bardet, who takes the speech as supporting the authenticity of the Testimonium because it shows that first century Jews were concerned about the growth of Christianity after Jesus, Pervo takes the speech to be a Lukan creation and that Luke intends it to show that the growth of Christianity in the face of adversity is proof of its divine origin. I think Pervo is correct (and that this is a theme Eusebius picks up from Luke and uses in several of his works and is present in the Testimonium) and I don't see how Pervo's pedophilia or criminal conviction affects that particular issue. If you do, please explain how.

I cited Pervo like this:

Richard I. Pervo, Acts: A Commentary (Hermeneia; Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2009) 148.

What would I need to add to my citation for it to qualify as an ethical citation, with full awareness of what Pervo did, in your view?
Also, I will make sure to take note that you white knight pedophile books. I'm glad to see your care about your fellow humans ends for the sake of some person's book.
It sounds like you are compiling a list of undesirables.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I admit that I once served on an SBL panel with Richard Pervo, and that this was after I had been informed of his conviction at the e-listers meeting at an earlier SBL.

https://www.sbl-site.org/meetings/Congr ... tingId=23

We all shook hands and introduced ourselves and neither I nor anyone else there mentioned his conviction. (He had, of course, already lost his job at that point). Does this make me an enabler? Am I so tainted that people citing me have to mention this? How about Charles Hedrick, who was on the same panel? Is his work on Secret Mark tainted by his presence on the panel?

I had not heard that about Helmut Koester. He once made an unfavorable comment after hearing my paper on Luke's dependence on Matthew in the double tradition at a panel on Q at another SBL. Should I now quote him as “known rapist Helmut Koester” when I refer to it?

On a related topic, pedophilia is psychological condition and, if you care about your fellow humans, you should distinguish between it and possession of child pornography, which is the crime of which I believe Pervo and Joosten were guilty. Many people with pedophilia never act on their desires and you ought to distinguish between the condition and criminal activity.

Best,

Ken
So a few notes:

1) I would personally add something to the affect of, after the citation of the book and page number, a bracketed note akin to this "[I wish to place a caveat in that I use this work out of necessity for my argumentation, but in full awareness and condemnation the author, Richard Pervo, for his possession of child porn.]" You use the work, but make it explicit as to why you use it and that you distance yourself from the author. Maia Kotrosis has also written on this in light of the Joosten situation in threads here: https://twitter.com/maiakotro/status/12 ... 9664996353

2) I would argue sex offenders and abusers are undesirable for any academic society, group, university, or to associate with. While you make dislike this, it is necessary and frankly my work doing this has been heralded by numerous academics for bringing awareness to the systemic sex abuse in Biblical studies.

3) No, I don't think we are to condemn anyone yet, except those that would continue defending the legacy of these figures any longer. Personally, as long as people are willing to take up fighting against this now, I'm fine. We can't undo our actions of the past, but we can at least try to do what is right by fighting against this in the future. That being said, I won't say I'm not a little upset at the very least. I personally ended my membership with SBL over their inept handling of Joosten's case and hiding of Pervo's crimes (also of Hayward and Coleman Baker's). It is enabling, unfortunately, but I see no reason to condemn anyone (except the perpetrators) as long as they thoroughly stand against it in the future.

4) I don't think anyone can be really condemned for associating with Koester in the past. His exploits were, in wider academia, largely unknown until Pagels came forward. Citing him, I would cite his work and in the first footnote in the main text writing something that amounts to (as Kotrosis wrote):

"I’ve found X’s work enlivening and enabling, even as his own relationships have been full of difficult [sexual] abuses of power."

5) On pedophilia, I think that those who are non-offenders should seek psychological help and be given aid. Ostracizing them before they've done anything wrong will only make it harder for them to do anything. So, I will definitely take your note here. But, if they actually commit crimes which result in the abuse and exploitation of children (as with Pervo, Hayward, Baker, Joosten, etc), then their legacy in academia, imo, is to be permanently tainted forever in all public discourse of their work. They should not be allowed a pristine academic legacy, because that is wholly at the expense of their victims as it hides their crimes.

6) I understand I've come across very crass in this discussion of sex abuse, but it is something that I, as a survivor (and given that roughly 1-5 or worse of all women in academia, as things become worse in hierarchical social systems) it is something I am just unrelentingly unable to let up on. This is a systemic problem in academia, and preserving the scholarly legacy of someone absent of their crimes provides abusers with a level of protection and a shield by which they are able to maintain a cloak of professional innocence. In that, when we do not refuse to interact with them (as I have done with Carrier, despite requests to debate him), host them, or to cite them with caveats we protect their legacy and therefore enable that cloak to persist. I won't permanently condemn those who have done so in the past. We make mistakes, we make errors, and also the full implications for what this means in academia have only recently been seriously researched and investigated. But I will condemn those who continue to do so after being called out, because that becomes inexcusable, in my opinion.

Chris Hansen
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by Chris Hansen » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:59 pm

Btw: as a complete side note, I very much respect and enjoy or work Ken. Thank you for your contributions to scholarship on the TF, they have been needed.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:19 pm

Chris Hansen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:58 pm

2) I would argue sex offenders and abusers are undesirable for any academic society, group, university, or to associate with. While you make (sic) [may(?)] dislike this, it is necessary and frankly my work doing this has been heralded by numerous academics for bringing awareness to the systemic sex abuse in Biblical studies.
.
What work doing this are you referring to?

How has it been heralded by numerous academics?

Chris Hansen
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by Chris Hansen » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:51 pm

https://cmepshansen9.wixsite.com/mysite/my-blog

I've been digging up and exposing sex offenders in Biblical studies and compiling a list of them. I have received numerous emails, aid, and support from academics worldwide in doing this.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:38 pm

You're the Chris Hansen from Dateline.

Image
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:46 pm

I see your page - https://cmepshansen9.wixsite.com/mysite/about Let me ask you something. I am not an American. I am originally from the other side of the Michigan border in Canada. Your history seems to reflect someone with very strong opinions. Why would a teenager have such strong opinions about anything? You were a teenager. How could you think you knew all the answers when you hadn't lived yet? I am always curious about Americans. It's like studying another species.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by Joseph D. L. » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:26 pm

I've been digging up and exposing sex offenders
You mean taking allegations as fact and circumventing the legal process to further some cultural agenda to ruin the private and professional lives of these men, tried by the Social Media Sanhedrin.

Are you an employee of a civil service or legal office? No? Then you have no business putting your nose where it doesn't belong.

And get a haircut. Jesus Christ.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:28 pm

Chris Hansen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:51 pm
https://cmepshansen9.wixsite.com/mysite/my-blog

I've been digging up and exposing sex offenders in Biblical studies and compiling a list of them. I have received numerous emails, aid, and support from academics worldwide in doing this.
Yes, you've clearly compiled a list.

In what way have you been 'digging up and exposing sex offenders in Bible studies'?

Chris Hansen
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by Chris Hansen » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:57 pm

Many of these names were actually able to hide their convictions or remain relatively under the radar in academia.

For example, the vast majority of people had no idea about Coleman Baker. I have been spending days digging through media, reports, and more. In the case of Baker, I was able to find a few things. It actually caused a stir with academic circles, because they had no idea. He had gone basically under the radar.

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Peter Kirby
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by Peter Kirby » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:03 pm

Chris Hansen wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:10 am
Hello all,

So, just for the aid of fellow scholars and laity alike, I've been working to document academic mythicist material, as well as responses to it by other academics. Though my mythicist book (work in progress) has been kindly shared here, I thought I would share the bibliography I've been developing, which lists numerous peer reviewed works on both sides.

https://www.academia.edu/43005350/LIST_ ... SINCE_1970

I wish to particularly note that there have been three (3) peer reviewed mythicist books, published in relevant houses, before Carrier's, including two comprehensive arguments for it (along with Brodie's memoir), all published between 1987 and 2012. This proves that Carrier's claim to be the first to publish a comprehensive peer reviewed mythicist book in fifty years is ostensibly false.

This bibliography is continuously updated as I find more content. So please check in on it if you wish to use it for a resource.

Thank you for all the hard work I've seen on this website.
Thanks for putting this together, Chris. Very useful, and I can see you've done the research. I wish I could understand what the Soviet mythicists were saying. I greatly appreciate the perspective you bring to the forum.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown

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