Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Chris Hansen
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by Chris Hansen » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:42 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:26 am
Remove from me a curiosity, please: are you a Christian?
Nope, I am not. I've been a vocal critic of Christianity for years.
Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:22 am
In my eyes this does not stand in their favor of all of them. At the most, but just at the most (!), you could make "history" by reporting his private matters if Carrier was already dead and buried. But to my knowledge he isn't. It escapes here the difference between mere defamation and 'report of history'.

At any case, as interested to mythicism, I enjoy your book, even if I should tolerate all that anti-mythicist gossip of background more or less implicit.
It really isn't pertinent whether one is alive or dead. It is still a historical note relevant to the current spread of mythicism. We can't overlook something that is directly pertinent, and I'm not going to wait another 30 years for Carrier to pass away to finally release my book (30 years is a long time, and by then I'm sure there will be so many more publications that I'd need a second book just to account for all of them haha).

It is directly relevant to the spread and popularity of mythicism and, as such, I do need to take account of it. That may make me unpopular in mythicist circles, but so be it.

And thank you for your interest :) I am very grateful for your help bringing awareness to more of the French scholarship on this. French mythicism I think has been unfairly glossed over to a large extent (although, I shall be honest, my true love are in the Soviet mythicist schools which I find amazingly fascinating).

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Giuseppe
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:47 am

Chris Hansen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:42 am
and by then I'm sure there will be so many more publications that I'd need a second book just to account for all of them haha
That is music for my ears. :cheers:

I admire you for the sincere passion you put in your claims, even on points I disagree strongly with.

Good prosecution, :thumbup:
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

maryhelena
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by maryhelena » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:41 am

Chris Hansen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:16 am
maryhelena wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:20 am
If it's the perfect man we seek we seek a phantom.

Arguments against the claimed historicity of Jesus of Nazareth will not fall to 'woke' attempts to discredit them - or those individuals who present them.

Ideas are powerful things - they don't fall by way of the hammer or kneel when faced with human failings.

Nelson Mandela is reported to have said that no man takes away his dignity. Mandela stood tall in spite of his own failings (the violence of the armed struggle of uMkhonto we Sizwe) and his years of imprisonment.

Searching for human failings is easy - we all have plenty of them. Negativity, however, is not the root to human greatness.

Rhodes may well fall to the 'woke' onslaught - but, methinks, Churchill will be the Rubicon it won't cross.
It isn't a 'woke' onslaught.

If I were writing a history of Nelson Mandela, I would talk about his failings.


Indeed that is what writing a biography is all about - warts and all.
If I were writing a history of Acts scholarship, I would Pervo's predilection for pedophilia.
Scholarship overshadowed negatively due to a man's personal failings? .... :popcorn: .
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats

Chris Hansen
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by Chris Hansen » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:01 am

Scholarship doesn't take precedence over the people it has harmed.

Sorry, but if one doesn't want their legacy to be overshadowed by their "personal failings" maybe they shouldn't be terrible people.

I don't make exceptions. I have too much of an ethical spine to pretend that we can separate a man from scholarship.

maryhelena
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by maryhelena » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:22 am

Chris Hansen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:01 am
Scholarship doesn't take precedence over the people it has harmed.
So what's the plan then?

'Cancel' the scholar and burn his books?

Seems to me that the inquisition might well be having a re-run under the cover of 'woke' moralizing, cancelling, culture..... :banghead:
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats

Chris Hansen
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by Chris Hansen » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:15 am

I don't think it is necessary to burn their books. But if they get cited, they get cited ethically: with full awareness and statements of what they did.

Also, I will make sure to take note that you white knight pedophile books. I'm glad to see your care about your fellow humans ends for the sake of some person's book.

Btw: I'd add that more and more scholars in the field agree with me and mass seminars are being had on ethics in citation. But sure, call it "woke" because you don't have enough of a moral spine to stand for something.

All you are doing is protecting the legacies of pedos. Should we also protect the legacies of Nazis. I'm sure Mengele would be glad to hear that you'd want to separate the person from the scholarship.

But yes, I'm "woke" because I think scholars should be held accountable by their peers for their actions. No wonder pedo rings and more manage to persist in academic circles. People like you discourage them being held accountable and protect their legacies. Let me ask, do you think we should protect Jan Joosten's too? How about Kittel's? How about Haeckel's? Should we protect rampant ethno-nationalist and Mussolini supporter Mircea Eliade's legacy too?

perseusomega9
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by perseusomega9 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:09 am

I'm confused about what you mean Chris. If I were writing a novel thesis on the book of Acts say under interpolation or redaction theories, why would Pervo's criminality need to be mentioned if I cite his work with respect to a particular interpretation of a passage in Acts? If I was writing a history of the scholarship of Acts then I can see it getting mentioned.

Chris Hansen
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by Chris Hansen » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:27 am

Because pedophiles should not be cited without noting who they are. Otherwise their legacy is protected and people don't learn about it. This would be like citing Mengele without noting his involvement in the Holocaust.

But also, I'm primarily writing a history of scholarship on mythicism. People are complaining that I mentioned Carrier's harassment situations that led to him being banned from Skepticon. My point is twofold:

1) Heinous criminals of sex abuse, racism, etc should not go without noting this. Otherwise it protects the legacy of abusers. This is *not* saying we can't use their scholarship. We can. But we don't protect their legacies while doing it.
2) To write a proper history of scholarship, we *need* to note these problems, because they may (and often do) affect the reception of work.

maryhelena
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by maryhelena » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:45 am

Chris Hansen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:15 am
I don't think it is necessary to burn their books. But if they get cited, they get cited ethically: with full awareness and statements of what they did.

Also, I will make sure to take note that you white knight pedophile books. I'm glad to see your care about your fellow humans ends for the sake of some person's book.

Btw: I'd add that more and more scholars in the field agree with me and mass seminars are being had on ethics in citation. But sure, call it "woke" because you don't have enough of a moral spine to stand for something.

All you are doing is protecting the legacies of pedos. Should we also protect the legacies of Nazis. I'm sure Mengele would be glad to hear that you'd want to separate the person from the scholarship.

But yes, I'm "woke" because I think scholars should be held accountable by their peers for their actions. No wonder pedo rings and more manage to persist in academic circles. People like you discourage them being held accountable and protect their legacies. Let me ask, do you think we should protect Jan Joosten's too? How about Kittel's? How about Haeckel's? Should we protect rampant ethno-nationalist and Mussolini supporter Mircea Eliade's legacy too?
Ideas can enslave and they can liberate. That is the reality of our evolutionary intellect. A reality that can't be cancelled by throwing stones at those who have held bad, heritical or immoral ideas. Our intellect may at times be slow to correct its wrong or harebrained ideas.... But self correction does occur....

Since stone throwing is not a game that interests me... I'll simply say..... :goodmorning:
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats

Chris Hansen
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Re: Resource for Mythicist and Response Documentation

Post by Chris Hansen » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:17 am

Self correction doesn't occur where you protect pedophile legacies.

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