Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

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Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Giuseppe »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:49 am The fact that nobody but me responds to your Barabbas threads, is enough to know that nobody cares. There's your answer.
Well. I find more justified their indifference than your morbid attachment to me. I don't consider the exegesis as a collective effort. Your way of action remembers more the work of a company, where any member has to converge towards an identical solution. And dissidents have to be punished. Sorry, but it is a hobby for me, and you are breaking my toy irrationally.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:04 am Some corrections:

πυλαιτιδος is the genitive of πυλαῖτις (nominative).

If Pylaitis sounds strange for you, then you have more directly Pylatis.
Pylaitis has as synonimous Pylatis, too. Always referred to Athena "protectress of the gates".

Πυλατις
Unless you can link to a blueletterbible or Strong's concordance, I will not accept either πυλαιτιδος or πυλαῖτις as they appear to be inaccurate and only show up in out of date dictionaries, and even there the definitions are not given, let alone meaning gatekeeper, which is irrelevant to Pilate anyway. If Pylatis always refers to Athena, why does absolutely nothing show up on google about an "Athena Pylatis", and the only, ONLY source for this attribution, is from a spurious work by Lycophron?

So at best you are using an obscure word and shoehorning it next to Pilate, a word that has absoluetly nothing to do with gates or keeping them, or escaping them, because they look the same and it furthers your own abortive agenda.

My conclusion? Either you're making this up, or you're formulating your insane theory based on bad information, and are too arrogant to admit it.

I have already the answer to this objection. See above.
No you don't. What you have is more leaps in logic.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:06 am
Joseph D. L. wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:49 am The fact that nobody but me responds to your Barabbas threads, is enough to know that nobody cares. There's your answer.
Well. I find more justified their indifference than your morbid attachment to me. I don't consider the exegesis as a collective effort. Your way of action remembers more the work of a company, where any member has to converge towards an identical solution. And dissidents have to be punished. Sorry, but it is a hobby for me, and you are breaking my toy irrationally.
And this is a hobby for me. I don't get paid for this and to be quite honest I really don't care about it that much. I want to be a novelist. Not a Biblical scholar. But your theories, your toys as you call them, are 100% idiotic, built on backwards logic, and no evidence. No, worse than no evidence. You actively have to warp reality to make everything fit your theories.

And if you can't accept criticism, Giuseppe, then you shouldn't put your theories where others can read them. Nobody has to accept them, and they're idiots because they don't. You come off as a petulant child, and I wonder what Freud would have to say about your calling your theory a toy.
Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Giuseppe »

Pilatus is a man with pilum. Goddess Athena is called pylatis because, harmed with a spear, she protects the gate. Usually, men with spears work as guards at the gate.

At any case, it is not the possible allegorical meaning of the name "Pilate" my strongest point.

My strongest point is that the Irenaeus confirms that there is a connection between "Son of Father" and who escapes the guard of the demons in the air, to reach the pleroma. The same connection can be read in the connection between thr fugitive Barabbas and Pilate, in the Gospel.

But the fact that Barabbas is a criminal should make us remember that the entire episode is a parody, a criminalization of Jesus Son of Father by his reduction to a mere Barabbas.

Barabbas was introduced to denigrate as mere criminal who, in a previous story, abandoned a man on the cross: the spiritual Christ, the Son of Father.

And naturally, to denigrate the Gnostic claim that, by proclaiming himself/herself as "Son of Father", one can evade the guard of the Archons in the air.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Giuseppe »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:18 amNot a Biblical scholar.
this is an insult worse than any other. I don't like biblical studies. They are doomed. I am only following my implications from my premises. This is a "thread" of cosciousness, also. You can't transform anything in ad hominem.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Joseph D. L. »

OOOOoooommmm

I summon the great Ben.

Can you confirm to us mortals that Giuseppe is correct?

My blood I give as tribute.

Please show us the way.

OOOOoooommmm

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Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Giuseppe »

Ben is possibilist on a lot of things, a point of force but also of weakness. Hence his silence on this crucial point that, if accepted, changes bluntly the dating of Mark, to begin.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:30 am OOOOoooommmm

I summon the great Ben.

Can you confirm to us mortals that Giuseppe is correct?

My blood I give as tribute.

Please show us the way.

OOOOoooommmm
Sorry, you may have to be more specific. The forum has improved greatly from my viewpoint since implementing my current policy:

Foe.png
Foe.png (33.63 KiB) Viewed 3517 times

From your own posts on this thread, I see something about a rare (possibly unique) epithet for Athena:
Joseph D. L. wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:08 amUnless you can link to a blueletterbible or Strong's concordance, I will not accept either πυλαιτιδος or πυλαῖτις as they appear to be inaccurate and only show up in out of date dictionaries, and even there the definitions are not given, let alone meaning gatekeeper, which is irrelevant to Pilate anyway. If Pylatis always refers to Athena, why does absolutely nothing show up on google about an "Athena Pylatis", and the only, ONLY source for this attribution, is from a spurious work by Lycophron?
I myself have never heard this epithet for Athena, and the TLG gives me exactly three hits for Πυλαῖτις, all of them referring back to Lycophron:

Scholia In Aeschylum, Scholia in Aeschylum (scholia vetera) (5010: 001)
“Scholia Graeca in Aeschylum quae exstant omnia, vols. 1 & 2.2”, Ed. Smith, O.L.
Leipzig: Teubner, 1:1976; 2.2:1982.
Play Th, hypothesis-epigram-scholion 163d, line 10


κάλλιον δὲ εἰπεῖν τὸ
<πρὸ πόλεως> οὕτως· ὦ Ὄγκα Ἀθηνᾶ ἡ πρὸ τῆς πόλεως, ἤτοι οὖσα ἐζω-
γραφημένη τῆς πόλεως ἔμπροσθεν, ῥύου τὸ ἑπτάπυλον ἕδος, ἤτοι τὴν
ἑπτάπυλον πόλιν τῶν Θηβαίων· γίνωσκε γὰρ ὅτι ἐζωγράφουν ταύτην πρὸ
τῶν πυλῶν τῆς πόλεως, ἣν καὶ ὁ Λυκόφρων (356) <πυλαίτιδα> λέγει διὰ
τὸ ἄνωθεν ἱστορεῖσθαι ταύτην τῶν τῆς πόλεως πυλῶν.

Go to Context

Scholia In Aeschylum, Scholia in Aeschylum (scholia recentiora) (5010: 009)
“Aeschyli tragoediae superstites et deperditarum fragmenta, vol. 3 [Scholia Graeca ex codicibus aucta et emendata]”, Ed. Dindorf, W.
Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1851, Repr. 1962.
Play Th, hypothesis-verse of play 164, line 17


γίνωσκε
γὰρ ὅτι ἐζωγράφουν ταύτην πρὸ τῶν πυλῶν τῆς πόλεως, ἣν καὶ
Λυκόφρων πυλαίτιδα
λέγει, διὰ τὸ ἄνωθεν ἵστασθαι ταύτην τῶν τῆς
πόλεως πυλῶν.

Go to Context

Scholia In Lycophronem, Scholia in Lycophronem (scholia vetera et recentiora partim Isaac et Joannis Tzetzae) (5030: 001)
“Lycophronis Alexandra, vol. 2”, Ed. Scheer, E.
Berlin: Weidmann, 1958.
Scholion 356, line 10


ὅμοιον δέ ἐστι τῷ Ἀγέλεια ἡ ἄγουσα
λείαν. <Πυλαίτιδος>· καὶ τοῦτο συμβολικὸν ἐπίθετον
Ἀθηνᾶς.

Go to Context

Likewise, the LSJ does have an entry for Πυλαῖτις, and it, too, refers back only to Lycophron. I am hardly an expert either on Lycophron himself or on the scholia which might mention him, so I cannot speak to whether this is a genuine reference. The word itself seems exceedingly rare, possibly unique to Lycophron himself (and those who later quoted him).

In that post, you transcribed the epithet as Pylatis, though. This variant spelling, too, seems to be exceedingly rare:

Sophocles Trag., Trachiniae
Line 639


Ὦ ναύλοχα καὶ πετραῖα {Str. 1.}
θερμὰ λουτρὰ καὶ πάγους
Οἴτας παραναιετάοντες,
οἵ τε μέσσαν Μηλίδα πὰρ λίμναν,
χρυσαλακάτου τ' ἀκτὰν Κόρας,
ἔνθ' Ἑλλάνων ἀγοραὶ
Πυλάτιδες κλέονται,

ὁ καλλιβόας τάχ' ὑμῖν {Ant. 1.}
αὐλὸς οὐκ ἀναρσίαν
ἀχῶν καναχὰν ἐπάνεισιν,
ἀλλὰ θείας ἀντίλυρον μούσας.

Go to Context

Aelius Herodianus et Pseudo-Herodianus Gramm., Rhet., De prosodia catholica
Part+volume 3,1, page 106, line 15


<Ὠκεανῖτις, Μαρωνεῖτις, Σαλωνεῖτις, ἠερο-
φοῖτις, Ἀσιᾶτις, Ἀπολλωνιᾶτις, Δερεᾶτις> Ἄρτεμις, <Καρυᾶ-
τις, Καυλωνιᾶτις, Κροτωνιᾶτις, Μαλεᾶτις, Μιδεᾶτις, Μυρ-
λεᾶτις> χώρα Βιθυνίας, <Ναυκρατιᾶτις, Πισᾶτις, Πλαταιᾶτις,
Πυλᾶτις> «Πυλάτιδες ἀγοραί» (Sophocl. Trach. 638).

Go to Context

Aelius Herodianus et Pseudo-Herodianus Gramm., Rhet., Περὶ παρωνύμων
Part+volume 3,2, page 864, line 39


τὸ ἐθνικὸν Νινοήτης ὡς τὸ πύλη
πυλήτης, ὅθεν «Πυλάτιδες ἀγοραί» (Sophocl. Trach. 639) καὶ λίμνη
λιμνήτης.

Go to Context

Lycophron Trag., Alexandra
Line 356


Ἐγὼ δὲ τλήμων ἡ γάμους ἀρνουμένη
ἐν παρθενῶνος λαΐνου τυκίσμασιν,
ἄνις τεράμνων, εἰς ἀνώροφον στέγην
εἱρκτῆς ἁλιβδύσασα λυγαίας δέμας,
ἡ τὸν Θοραῖον Πτῷον Ὡρίτην θεὸν
λίπτοντ' ἀλέκτρων ἐκβαλοῦσα δεμνίων,
ὡς δὴ κορείαν ἄφθιτον πεπαμένη
πρὸς γῆρας ἄκρον, Παλλάδος ζηλώμασι
τῆς μισονύμφου Λαφρίας Πυλάτιδος,
τῆμος βιαίως φάσσα πρὸς τόργου λέχος
γαμφαῖσιν ἅρπαις οἰνὰς ἑλκυσθήσομαι,
ἡ πολλὰ δὴ Βούδειαν Αἴθυιαν Κόρην
ἀρωγὸν αὐδάξασα τάρροθον γάμων.

Go to Context

Stephanus Gramm., Ethnica (epitome)
Page 476, line 9


> τὸ ἐθνι-
κὸν Νινοήτης, ὡς τὸ πύλη πυλήτης, ὅθεν “Πυλάτιδες ἀγοραί”,
καὶ λίμνη λιμνήτης.

Go to Context

Stephanus Gramm., Ethnica (epitome)
Page 540, line 1


τὸ ἐθνικὸν Πυλάτης, τὸ θηλυ-
κὸν Πυλᾶτις.

Go to Context

Hesychius Lexicogr., Lexicon (Π – Ω)
Alphabetic letter pi, entry 4348, line 1


πυλωροῦ ἰσχυροῦ
<πυλάτιδες ἀγοραί>· ὅπου συνίασιν οἱ Ἀμφικτύονες εἰς τὴν λεγο-
μένην Πυλαίαν ἐν τῇ πανηγύρει
<πυλαυρός>· πυλωρός
<πυλαωρούς>· τοὺς πύλας φυλάσσοντας.

Go to Context

Most of these instances seem to refer back to a single instance in Sophocles, which can be found on Perseus. Interestingly, Lycophron appears on the list again.

I am not sure whether it matters to you or not, but none of these latter instances appears to refer to Athena. The term itself is just a feminine form of πυλαῖος (= "at the gate"). Sophocles seems to be referring to Thermopylae (= "Hot Gates").
...even there the definitions are not given, let alone meaning gatekeeper....
The etymology of both variants goes back to πύλη, "gate." This is explicit in some of the references above (in the first scholion, for example, Athena is said to be so named because she is πρὸ τῶν πυλῶν τῆς πόλεως, "before the gates of the city") and implicit in others.
...which is irrelevant to Pilate anyway.
This is obviously true. No connection to Pilate whatsoever.

Not entirely sure this is what you were looking for, but let me know. :)

ETA: I get zero hits for Πυλαῖτις or Πυλᾶτις on the PHI site.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Thanks as always Ben. Your knowledge is invaluable. I was just running Πυλαῖτις and Πυλᾶτις through the Google search engine and no definitions for them came up. I tried blueletterbible and Strong's Concordance and they were not even listed.

So at best these words are in fact real, yet their usage are so exceedingly rare and obscure that to apply them to some metaphysical interpretation to Pilate is tantamount to foolishness. The same holds true for "Athena Pylatis" and "palat". Just because they look the same as Pilate on the most rudimentary basis does not mean they are related in anyway. That's not how entomology and philology works, G*******.

Anyway, I've said all I care to say on the issue and Ben has confirmed that this is another dead end.
Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Giuseppe »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:05 am Anyway, I've said all I care to say on the issue and Ben has confirmed that this is another dead end.
Unfortunately for both you (idiots), my point here is not precisely the connection Pylatis/Pilate, but the words of Irenaeus. The magic formula 'I am the SON OF FATHER' necessary (for the souls) to evade the guard of the Archons in the air is not a coincidence with the meaning of 'Barabbas', SON OF FATHER, as the guy who escapes the death.

The trace of the Judaizer is too much evident.

As to Ben, never imagined that he is so specialized in the art of insult. He offends me just in a thread where I think and believe that I have made a great finding, probably one of the best findings of all my posts.

I don't deserve this cruel treatment. :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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