Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

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Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:40 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:36 am
That’s why you cannot give straight forward answers or evidence to prove your case.
answers to stupid objections seem to be by need stupid answers themselves.

A curiosity for you, so eager to collect a consensus among the local population against Giuseppe.

Dr. Detering, considered by Robert M. Price (and probably also by our Stuart) the "best scholar of his generation", considered enough positively the Couchoud/Stahl's article to show it in a German and English translation in his site.

Forgive me if I consider dr Detering a better scholar than even any intelligent person of this forum. And especially more worthy of attention and memory than you, Joseph D.L., without offence.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:48 pm

So? Why should I have to consider every single point someone makes because on one or two points we agree?

This has always been your greatest folly, Giuseppe. You can never think for yourself.

Isn't Detering's site also full of many high critical articles? Just because he promoted it does not mean he accepted it.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:15 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:48 pm
You can never think for yourself.
said by the same (....) guy who started a thread titled:

I would like a consensus. Do you believe Giuseppe's theory about Barabbas is viable?

But for pleasure...

Like the difference: I appeal to dr. Detering, you appeal to an entire consensus.

Quality versus quantity.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Baley
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Baley » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:50 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:07 am

Bar-Abbas was the Jewish name given to the bastards, i.e. the natural sons of unknown father, just as in the World of Westeros Snow is the name of the bastards.

This view is given without reference by Jean Radermakers, S. J., Au fil de l'Evangile selon saint Matthieu, 2, s° ed. p. 342.

Barabbas was the bastard, the natural son of an unknown father.
Although my interpretation of the Bar-Abbas episode differs from yours I find your connection with bastards interesting. It made me think of the Fitz prefix in English names. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitz#Revival
From the Stuart era (1603–1714) and later, a pseudo usage of Fitz was adopted for younger sons of the British royal family who lacked a legal surname, and particularly for illegitimate children of kings, princes, or general upper class men (...)

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Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:52 pm

Baley wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:50 am
Although my interpretation of the Bar-Abbas episode differs from yours
I wonder why people disagree with me about Barabbas. The coincidence is simply enormous, that the only Jesus son of an unknown Father and who was NOT the Jewish Messiah is precisely found independently in nature as the marcionite Jesus.

Only disagreeing with me on this point is sufficient to put a person on the list of my enemies.

I am joking, obviously, but I want to show my total chagrin and disappointment before this unexpected resistance against Stahl/Couchoud's conclusion about Barabbas. Beyond if one is historicist or mythicist.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Joseph D. L. » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:55 pm

Another example of Giuseppe's tenuous and flimsy evidence:
Bar-Abbas was the Jewish name given to the bastards, i.e. the natural sons of unknown father, just as in the World of Westeros Snow is the name of the bastards.
No it wasn't. A bastard, a mamzerim or a man whose father was unknown would be referred by his mother's name. The most readily available example of this is Yeshu ben Stada, or Son of Stada, his mother. And this extends to when the child was a bastard and the father was known, he would be referred to by the suspected father (Yeshu ben Pandera). The fact that ben Stada/ben Pandera were the Jewish names for Jesus Christ, and that Matthew unambiguously is aware of the notorious nature of Christ's parentage, is the final piece of evidence that disproves your entire theory.

Bar Abbas was a common Jewish name in the first and second centuries. Are you telling me there were a whole bunch of men named bastard walking around? Abbas also means teacher and it would be seen as a sign of respect to be called of the Teacher.

He went away from there and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him. And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things? What is the wisdom given to him? How are such mighty works done by his hands Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary...

We're not talking about God awful pseudo-LOTR by a lazy writer who let fame and fortune go to his head and arse. We're talking about Jewish culture. But maybe you don't know the difference between the two?
This view is given without reference by Jean Radermakers, S. J., Au fil de l'Evangile selon saint Matthieu, 2, s° ed. p. 342.
Then why the hell are you using it?
Barabbas was the bastard, the natural son of an unknown father.
Not only is there zero early Christian exegeses that even imply such a thing, everything proves that Barabbas was 1) not known as a bastard, 2) not a parody of Marcionism, 3) was in fact known as a symbol for the scapegoat.

You're done. You're a liar; a deceitful and useful idiot playing on the ignorance of others with your obscurantist rhetoric.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:04 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:55 pm
This view is given without reference by Jean Radermakers, S. J., Au fil de l'Evangile selon saint Matthieu, 2, s° ed. p. 342.
Then why the hell are you using it?
because, for your knowledge, it is an academic source. Hence your continue defamation against Giuseppe makes you very much similar to Tim O'Neill in his irrational opposition to Carrier.

The saying Mater semper certa implies that the father of the bastards is unknown. And this in Rome, where probably Mark was written.

Joseph D.L., you are totally execrated by me for your opposition to the authentic meaning of Bar-Abbas.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Joseph D. L. » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:27 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:04 pm
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:55 pm
This view is given without reference by Jean Radermakers, S. J., Au fil de l'Evangile selon saint Matthieu, 2, s° ed. p. 342.
Then why the hell are you using it?
because, for your knowledge, it is an academic source. Hence your continue defamation against Giuseppe makes you very much similar to Tim O'Neill in his irrational opposition to Carrier.

The saying Mater semper certa implies that the father of the bastards is unknown. And this in Rome, where probably Mark was written.
Why are you referring to yourself in the third person? That's the second time now.

That doesn't mean anything, and an academic source, one would hope, would have the reference in it, otherwise it is useless as a source.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/An ... frontcover
The matronymic was often used for illegitimate children of a free woman and a slave who owed their legal status to their mother.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Th ... frontcover
Like their Roman counterparts, boys were often named after their grandfathers or fathers and girls were named after their ... persons matronymics were often understood as a derogatory comment, likely because slaves and illegitimate children
So no, in Rome a bastard would be named after his mother's line, and bar Abbas is a Jewish name, not a Roman name, so you are only trying to confuse the issues further.

And we already have evidence of such matronymics in the case of ben Stada, whom I will remind you again was the name Jews called Jesus Christ.

Got anything else for me to debunk, Giuseppe?

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Joseph D. L. » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:30 pm

Hence your continue defamation against Giuseppe makes you very much similar to Tim O'Neill in his irrational opposition to Carrier.
I am the hope of the universe. I am the answer to all living things that cry out for peace. I am protector of the innocent. I am the light in the darkness. I am truth. Ally to good! Nightmare to you!

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Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence that Irenaeus knows the meaning of Barabbas ("Son of Father")

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:36 pm

:scratch:
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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