Jesus Naked in the Gospel

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Jesus Naked in the Gospel

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:26 pm

This is fun. Here I can prove Jesus was black.

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“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Jesus Naked in the Gospel

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:55 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:26 pm
This is fun. Here I can prove Jesus was black.
https://thegrio.com/2020/07/13/passenge ... ack-threat.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

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Secret Alias
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Re: Jesus Naked in the Gospel

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:58 pm

https://thegrio.com/2020/07/13/passenge ... ack-threat

"How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news!"
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Jesus Naked in the Gospel

Post by Joseph D. L. » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:40 am

Ken, can I ask why your hostility?

In his steps follow closely and in those of others like him in virtue, whom the priesthood makes poor men and more than ever humble. Or if you will be perfect, go out with Abraham from your country and from your kindred, and go whither you know not. If you have substance, sell it and give to the poor. If you have none, then are you free from a great burden. Destitute yourself, follow a destitute Christ. The task is a hard one, it is great and difficult; but the reward is also great.

https://books.google.com/books?id=fMAfA ... 25&f=false

Matthew might give a witness in 5:40: "And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well;" and Matthew 10:8-10: "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay. Acquire no gold or silver or copper for your belts, no bag for your journey, or two tunics or sandals or a staff, for the laborer deserves his food." Matthew 25 climaxes with:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Then you have Luke 6:29-30: To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back.

So if it's not heavily explicit it is implicit that those who follow Christ are to destitute themselves of earthly possessions, and that includes even the shirts and tunics off their backs, thus being naked, following the naked Jesus.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Jesus Naked in the Gospel

Post by Joseph D. L. » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:03 pm

So we have commandments by Jesus that his followers are to follow him and his examples of poverty, which includes possible nakedness.

There is the explicit description of the fleeing youth running away naked.

We also have the explicit descriptions of Jesus being naked at the crucifixion, as well as Jesus and Lazarus being nude, or implied to be nude, when they resurrected.

I'm not sure if there's a greater meaning behind this, but I find Ken's criticisms to be unfair to Stephan.

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Re: Jesus Naked in the Gospel

Post by Ken Olson » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:58 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:03 pm
I'm not sure if there's a greater meaning behind this, but I find Ken's criticisms to be unfair to Stephan.
Hi Joseph (if I may),

I'm working on a longer reply to your post, but I'd like to ask you a question first. Do you understand that Stephan is claiming that the author of Mark is saying that Jesus was literally naked from the time he crossed the Jordan toward Jerusalem (sometime after Mark 10.1), that the beggar Bartimaeus (and possibly the Rich Young Man) in Mark 10 were also literally naked, that Jesus, the disciples, and some of the people in the Triumphal Entry (Mark 11.7-9) were naked and that Jesus was naked during the Cleansing of the Temple (Mark 11.15-19)?

I'm not making a general argument against nakedness being mentioned in the gospels, certainly not in the cases Mark 14.52 and Matthew 25 where the word naked is actually found, nor in the case of Jesus being crucified naked in John where it is explicitly stated that the soldiers took his himation and chiton (19.7). I'm arguing that Stephan has made no reasonable case for concluding that Mark meant to portray Jesus, Bartimaeus, the disciples, and other people as publicly naked in Mark 10-11. Are you saying that you think Stephan has, in fact, made a reasonable case for those?

Best,

Ken

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Secret Alias
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Re: Jesus Naked in the Gospel

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:04 pm

No I am not. I am questioning whether or not it is possible. How many nakeds are there? How often is Jesus naked? And yes, I think it WOULD be a statement about Jesus being the redeemed Adam if he felt no shame being naked. Whether or not it was actually 'true' - remember I don't think any of this ever happened - was my question. I suspect you think that this stuff actually happened. I don't.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Ken Olson
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Re: Jesus Naked in the Gospel

Post by Ken Olson » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:17 pm

Ok, let me change the word ‘claiming’ to ‘making the case that’:
Do you understand that Stephan is making the case that the author of Mark is saying that Jesus was literally naked from the time he crossed the Jordan toward Jerusalem (sometime after Mark 10.1), that the beggar Bartimaeus (and possibly the Rich Young Man) in Mark 10 were also literally naked, that Jesus, the disciples, and some of the people in the Triumphal Entry (Mark 11.7-9) were naked and that Jesus was naked during the Cleansing of the Temple (Mark 11.15-19)?
Is that accurate?

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Secret Alias
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Re: Jesus Naked in the Gospel

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:23 pm

No. Stephan has noticed there's lots of nudity from chapter 10 onward. How much nudity was there? At the most Jesus was naked from the moment he crosses the Jordan. At the least people keep stripping around him and he ends up naked on the Cross.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Ken Olson
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Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 9:26 am

Re: Jesus Naked in the Gospel

Post by Ken Olson » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:43 pm

There is no explicit nudity in Mar 10 and 11. You are making the case for it based on:

1) people taking off their himations, combined with your assumption that poor people did no wear chitons under their himations
2) Jerome’s nudus num comment which alludes to the Rich Young Man, which you suggest indicates Jesus actual nudity in the pericope
3) a parallel you perceive between Isaiah who is explicitly said to be nude in the temple in Isaiah 20 and Jesus who is not in Mark 11.

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