Dating One Corinthians 13

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perseusomega9
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Re: Dating One Corinthians 13

Post by perseusomega9 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:07 am

Walker's points for 1 Cor 13 interpolation.
  • Can be seen as independent unit, genre differs from chs 12 & 14
  • unlike 12 & 14 does not contain a single imperative verb and all verbs with people as subject are 1st person vs 3rd for 12 & 14
  • seems it would be more appropriate after 14
  • 12 & 14 discuss spiritual gifts and role in public worship, 13 is an encomium on love
  • despite scholarly arguments that themes in 13 do tie into 12 & 14 this would be expected for interpolation as well
  • 14.1a seems to be a redaction seam from 12.31a, iow 14.1b follows smoothly after 12.31a
  • other scholars have noted 13 is a digression in Paul's argument
  • Even if interpolation, doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't written by Paul
  • Walker sums: It is rather an interruption that both breaks the logical flow of chs. 12 and 14 and, in a literary style quite foreign to these chapters, declares essentially irrelevant the issues there being discussed."
to be continued
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe

perseusomega9
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Re: Dating One Corinthians 13

Post by perseusomega9 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:26 am

Walker makes the same observation as my OP
Martyrdom. In 1 Cor. 13.3, there may be a reference to martyrdom.
Here, we encounter what Fee terms 'one of the truly difficult' textual
choices in the New Testament.65 Although the manuscript evidence
would appear to support the reading, 'if I deliver my body in order that
I might boast', most scholars prefer the variant, 'if I deliver my body in
order that I might be burned'.66 If the latter is indeed the correct reading,
it may, as Fee indirectly suggests, pose a problem so far as Pauline
authorship of the passage is concerned: 'Even though martyrdom by
fire was not unknown among the Jews, this had not yet become a
Christian phenomenon; the fiery persecutions of Nero are still at least a
decade away'.
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Dating One Corinthians 13

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:36 am

perseusomega9 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:07 am
Walker's points for 1 Cor 13 interpolation.
  • Can be seen as independent unit, genre differs from chs 12 & 14
  • unlike 12 & 14 does not contain a single imperative verb and all verbs with people as subject are 1st person vs 3rd for 12 & 14
  • seems it would be more appropriate after 14
  • 12 & 14 discuss spiritual gifts and role in public worship, 13 is an encomium on love
  • despite scholarly arguments that themes in 13 do tie into 12 & 14 this would be expected for interpolation as well
  • 14.1a seems to be a redaction seam from 12.31a, iow 14.1b follows smoothly after 12.31a
  • other scholars have noted 13 is a digression in Paul's argument
  • Even if interpolation, doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't written by Paul
  • Walker sums: It is rather an interruption that both breaks the logical flow of chs. 12 and 14 and, in a literary style quite foreign to these chapters, declares essentially irrelevant the issues there being discussed."
The highlighted part is what especially draws my eye.
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perseusomega9
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Re: Dating One Corinthians 13

Post by perseusomega9 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:22 am

he also notes 10-11 hapax legomena in 13 compared to the 'authentic' Pauline epistles.
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe

perseusomega9
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Re: Dating One Corinthians 13

Post by perseusomega9 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:35 am

and those start in the redactional seam at 12.31b
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Dating One Corinthians 13

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:12 am

perseusomega9 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:35 am
and those start in the redactional seam at 12.31b
Yes, I say "chapter 13" as a shorthand, but mentally I am always including 12.31b.
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perseusomega9
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Re: Dating One Corinthians 13

Post by perseusomega9 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:37 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:36 am
perseusomega9 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:07 am
Walker's points for 1 Cor 13 interpolation.
  • Can be seen as independent unit, genre differs from chs 12 & 14
  • unlike 12 & 14 does not contain a single imperative verb and all verbs with people as subject are 1st person vs 3rd for 12 & 14
  • seems it would be more appropriate after 14
  • 12 & 14 discuss spiritual gifts and role in public worship, 13 is an encomium on love
  • despite scholarly arguments that themes in 13 do tie into 12 & 14 this would be expected for interpolation as well
  • 14.1a seems to be a redaction seam from 12.31a, iow 14.1b follows smoothly after 12.31a
  • other scholars have noted 13 is a digression in Paul's argument
  • Even if interpolation, doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't written by Paul
  • Walker sums: It is rather an interruption that both breaks the logical flow of chs. 12 and 14 and, in a literary style quite foreign to these chapters, declares essentially irrelevant the issues there being discussed."
The highlighted part is what especially draws my eye.
Any time I read a scholar on their interpretations and they come across these Pauline digressions which seem to counter what was just said or nullifies what's coming up I just shake my head. They recognize the phenomenon, they just won't call it what it is.
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe

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JoeWallack
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Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons"). 7 Firsts @ the XXX Olympiads. The Conversion of Revelation to Historical Witness

Post by JoeWallack » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:05 am

Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 7)
Reply to an objection founded on the words of St. Paul (2 Cor. iv. 4). St. Paul occasionally uses words not in their grammatical sequence.
1. As to their affirming that Paul said plainly in the Second [Epistle] to the Corinthians, In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them that believe not, 2 Corinthians 4:4 and maintaining that there is indeed one god of this world, but another who is beyond all principality, and beginning, and power, we are not to blame if they, who give out that they do themselves know mysteries beyond God, know not how to read Paul. For if any one read the passage thus — according to Paul's custom, as I show elsewhere, and by many examples, that he uses transposition of words — In whom God, then pointing it off, and making a slight interval, and at the same time read also the rest [of the sentence] in one [clause], has blinded the minds of them of this world that believe not, he shall find out the true [sense]; that it is contained in the expression, God has blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world. And this is shown by means of the little interval [between the clause]. For Paul does not say, the God of this world, as if recognising any other beyond Him; but he confessed God as indeed God. And he says, the unbelievers of this world, because they shall not inherit the future age of incorruption. I shall show from Paul himself, how it is that God has blinded the minds of them that believe not, in the course of this work, that we may not just at present distract our mind from the matter in hand, [by wandering] at large.

2. From many other instances also, we may discover that the apostle frequently uses a transposed order in his sentences, due to the rapidity of his discourses, and the impetus of the Spirit which is in him.
Translation = Determine what Paul meant, not what he wrote. Believing that what was written was not what was meant starts you on the path to Orthodox Corruption. It's not a coincidence that in Irenaeus' time, late second century, we have nothing extant. There's no Bible at this time and irenaeus' authority exceeds Manuscript authority. Irenaeus looks like the start/source? of many of Orthodox Christianity's wrong assertians, GMark 1:1, GMark 16:8, "Mark", "Matthew", Paul verses Peter and as Gene Wilder said in the classic Young Frankenstein, "etcetera, etcetera, etcetera."


Joseph

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andrewcriddle
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Re: Dating One Corinthians 13

Post by andrewcriddle » Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:35 am

One should note that Metzger in his textual commentary suggests that to be burned may refer to the story of Shadrach meshach and abednego in the fiery furnace in Daniel 3. If so the reading would probably not be relevant for dating 1 Corinthians 13.

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perseusomega9
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Re: Dating One Corinthians 13

Post by perseusomega9 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:07 am

It's a passing comment by Metzger, he does not try to establish that point further or provide other linkages to 1 Cor 13 to Daniel
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe

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