The only references to a celestial crucifixion in any extent New Testament or Christian text

[MrMacSon]

I have argued that what Jesus describes to Nicodemus is a foreshadowing of Paul--his own assumption into the third heaven, his crucifixion, his being reborn again, "above", which is all tied to a baptism of sorts.

his own assumption? Jesus's assumption, crucifixion, and rebirth/resurrection are a foreshadowing of Paul's?

Or, they'd just different accounts of the same thing [the same sort of (new) theological memes]?

[Joseph D. L.]

I have argued that what Jesus describes to Nicodemus is a foreshadowing of Paul--his own assumption into the third heaven, his crucifixion, his being reborn again, "above", which is all tied to a baptism of sorts.

his own assumption? Jesus's assumption, crucifixion, and rebirth/resurrection are a foreshadowing of Paul's?

Or, they'd just different accounts of the same thing [the same sort of (new) theological memes]?

Jesus is not foreshadowing his own crucifixion or ascension to Nicodemus. He is foreshadowing the coming Paraclete, who is Paul. Paul states in 2 Cor 12 that he was assumed up into the Third Heaven, and the Apocalypse of Paul illustrates this further.

Nicodemus is the earliest layer of Ur-John and the early Johannine cycle, wherein Jesus was the auger of one to come after him, that someone being Paul. This is why figures of the Johannine cycle (Ignatius, Polycarp, Peregrinus Proteus) all have deaths and resurrection/reappearing stories similar to Jesus. Pilate is also a figure of the Johannine cycle, as the one who is fated to sentence/kill Christ yet is ultimately the last one who accepts Christ.

I'm getting off topic. The point is that Jesus is telling Nicodemus the signs of the coming Paraclete, and Paul matches all three. Jesus, by contrast, is not reborn again/above. Indeed, Jesus dies and immediately ascends to Heaven in Ur-John.

[MrMacSon]

Jesus is not foreshadowing his own crucifixion or ascension to Nicodemus. He is foreshadowing the coming Paraclete, who is Paul. Paul states in 2 Cor 12 that he was assumed up into the Third Heaven, and the Apocalypse of Paul illustrates this further.

Nicodemus is the earliest layer of Ur-John and the early Johannine cycle, wherein Jesus was the auger of one to come after him, that someone being Paul. This is why figures of the Johannine cycle (Ignatius, Polycarp, Peregrinus Proteus) all have deaths and resurrection/reappearing stories similar to Jesus. Pilate is also a figure of the Johannine cycle, as the one who is fated to sentence/kill Christ yet is ultimately the last one who accepts Christ.

I'm getting off topic. The point is that Jesus is telling Nicodemus the signs of the coming Paraclete, and Paul matches all three. Jesus, by contrast, is not reborn again/above. Indeed, Jesus dies and immediately ascends to Heaven in Ur-John.

On what basis are you saying that? That Jesus was a real person aware of Paul? On the basis of an evolving school of evolving theologians? On the basis of a literary process or school?

[Joseph D. L.]

On what basis are you saying that? That Jesus was a real person aware of Paul? On the basis of an evolving school of evolving theologians? On the basis of a literary process or school?

The basis is that Jesus is there to authenticate Paul's claim of being Paraclete.

Even with the reconstructed ideas about the Marcionite editions of the Pauline corpus, when examined critically the problem of Paul is still there. Who is Paul? Where does he come from? What gives him the right to preach and to lead of the Jerusalem church? That answer is found in Ur-John. Although it will always remain mystery as to its true contents, one thing is almost for certain, that it was prefiguring Paul.

In other words, it's a PR text.

[Joseph D. L.]

The question really is, are the Nicolaitans related in anyway to the Marcionites? Both Nicolas and Nicodemus mean effectively the same thing; Nicodemus is the Apostle of the Johannine Christians (those who used 1, 2, 3 John, Ur-John, Acta Pilatus/Gospel of Nicodemus) and I am of the mind if there is some relation between him and the Demas figure in the the Pauline and Pastoral Epistles.