Irenaeus on the date of the Crucifixion

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Charles Wilson
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Re: John's" Jesus' (age) is Long, His Verse is Strong's, and he's down to get the religious friction on. Hell Yah(weh)!

Post by Charles Wilson » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:55 am

TedM wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:59 am
4.<<Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, both the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables>> This is an action more likely to be performed by a younger man.
TedM --

You have written a fair List of Observations.

#4 is of interest. I would contend that this "Action" is not of any one man, young or old. It is in the Temple and "Actions" occurring in the Temple would have been severely monitored. Many would like to think that there were a group of Proto-Christians peacefully worshiping and so on.

Josephus, Ant..., 17, 9, 2:

"So when the king [Archelaus] had suggested these things, and instructed his general in what he was to say, be sent him away to the people; but they made a clamor, and would not give him leave to speak, and put him in danger of his life, and as many more as were desirous to venture upon saying openly any thing which might reduce them to a sober mind, and prevent their going on in their present courses, because they had more concern to have all their own wills performed than to yield obedience to their governors; thinking it to be a thing insufferable, that, while Herod was alive, they should lose those that were most dear to them, and that when he was dead, they could not get the actors to be punished. So they went on with their designs after a violent manner, and thought all to be lawful and right which tended to please them, and being unskillful in foreseeing what dangers they incurred; and when they had suspicion of such a thing, yet did the present pleasure they took in the punishment of those they deemed their enemies overweigh all such considerations..."

The following does not rise to Proof Level. However, note what is happening. This is at the death of Herod. I believe that a Coup has been planned against the Herodians and their Roman Overlords. It is a Coup designed and implemented by the Priesthood. 3000+ are about to be slaughtered when Archelaus fears that the government - HIS government - will be lost. Passover is to be cancelled and, to the Believers, the Nation will be unclean.

Ask yourself: would it make sense to find that the Money-Making Operations of the Money Changers would have been left untouched in this Coup-Attempt?

One person would have been suppressed, probably violently, in the Temple.

If there was an Open Takeover of the Temple, it would make sense - maybe even a demand would be made - that any Apparatus sanctioned by the State in the Temple would be ended.

Luke 19: 45 - 46 (RSV):

[45] And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold,
[46] saying to them, "It is written, `My house shall be a house of prayer'; but you have made it a den of robbers."

Luke 3: 7 - 9 (RSV):

[7] He said therefore to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
[8] Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.
[9] Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

Luke 19: 39 - 40 (RSV):

[39] And some of the Pharisees in the multitude said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples."
[40] He answered, "I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out."

As I have stated, probably too often, "The stones did cry out". This is a Coup and the Instigators of this Coup - the Priesthood and a few elders - are ready for Violence.

One person could not do this. Take over the Temple, however, and the Violence Threat of the Ringleaders would virtually demand something like this. After this, they wait for the Appearance of God to Cleanse the Temple. They are met with Death instead.

CW

PS Edit: Obviously, the Assumption made here is that these Stories of the Coup of 4 BCE are what became rewritten as the NT stories of a savior/god. I'm OK with that. Not many others are OK here. YMMV.

TedM
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Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:25 am

Re: Irenaeus on the date of the Crucifixion

Post by TedM » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:33 am

many interpretations are possible as to what really happened. Thanks for your thoughts.

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