Paul as the Abortion?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
robert j
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Paul as the Abortion?

Post by robert j »

Paul's self-reference “as the ektroma” in 1 Corinthians 15:8 has spawned wide debate and a range of interpretations. Why would Paul refer to himself as an abortion, an abortive birth, or an untimely birth? These are the best translations of the Greek term. Most translators have preferred to go with “untimely born” to match Paul's claim to be “last” in his list of those that had “seen” the Christ.

In another thread, I suggested that Paul presented himself, in his past, as the ektroma, from the tale told in chapter 12 of Numbers.

A few modern-day scholars have made the same association, but most try to fit their interpretations within the context of an historical Jesus, and the fictional tale in Acts of Paul's miraculous experience on the road to Damascus. But, usefully, some have pointed out how Paul's use of the article, “as the ektroma”, reveals the important nature of Paul's self-reference --- and also suggesting the reason Paul referred to himself this way is found in his following verse, “For I am the least of the apostles, not fit to be called an apostle because I persecuted the assembly of god.” (1 Corinthians 15:9)

I believe Paul presented his former self as a sinner, as doing evil things, becoming as the ektroma in chapter 12 of Numbers, because he had once persecuted the assembly of god --- that is until Paul came to believe that god had revealed to him the role of spreading the knowledge of the son among the Gentiles. (Galatians 1: 13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:8-9).

Notably, an earlier Jew --- yet a near contemporary with Paul --- compared one “bringing forth evil things” with the ektroma in chapter 12 of Numbers.

Philo, Allegorical Interpretation I, XXIV (76);
“But, though always in labour, it never brings forth. For the soul of the worthless man is not calculated by nature to bring any thing to perfection which is likely to live. But every thing which it appears to bring forth is found to be abortive and immature. "Eating up the half of its flesh, and being like a death of the Soul." (from Numbers 12:12). On which account that holy word Aaron entreats the pious Moses, who was beloved by God, to heal the leprosy of Miriam, in order that her soul might not be occupied in the labour of bringing forth evil things. And in consequence he says: "Let her not become like unto death, as an abortion [ektroma] proceeding out of the womb of her mother, and let her not devour the half of her own Flesh." (from Numbers 12:12-13)”
I think the Greek ektroma in 1 Corinthians 15:8 defies ready translation --- it's like a picture worth a thousand words (or at least a few dozen). I wonder how many other Greek words in the NT have found similar woefully incomplete representation?

I see these verses as supporting evidence that 1 Corinthians and Galatians are authentic letters from Paul.

Paul, or another author, writing to a general audience would not likely refer to Paul as “the ektroma”, a reference that would be baffling to a wider audience. But Paul wasn't writing to a general audience, he was writing to his congregation in Corinth. He was writing to a group of people that had heard the story before from Paul (1 Cor 15:1-3), likely in greater detail --- Paul was just reminding them here. And from Paul's letter to the Galatians, it seems Paul may have told the story to the Galatians before as well. (Gal 1:13).

robert j.

Here's further elaboration that I posted previously in another thread ---
I suggest that Paul saw himself as Miriam, the ektroma in Nunbers 12:12.

Here's a synopsis of the story Paul tells in chapter one of Galatians (1:13-24). He was persecuting the assembly of god, but god then set Paul apart and revealed his son in him, and Paul took a sojourn in Arabia (Sinai?) before returning to Damascus. After that he pursued his work in the advancement of the Christ.

Here's a literal translation of 1 Corinthians 15:8-9,
“Last of all, as the ektroma, he appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles, not fit to be called an apostle because I persecuted the assembly of god.”
Here's a synopsis of the tale of Mariam from chapter 12 of Numbers from the Septuagint. Mariam (and Aaron) spoke against Moses, god called them and expressed his anger and Mariam appeared leprous. Aaron pleaded with Moses, claiming ignorance for his sins and for Mariam's --- pleading for Mariam not to be like an ektroma. Moses then exhorted god to heal her --- and god exiled Mariam for seven days before she returned and was cleansed.

I believe Paul presented himself as the ektroma from Numbers, sinning in his ignorance by harassing the assembly of god. But then god appeared to him and revealed the truth, Paul went into exile and returned cleansed.

Certainly such a obscure allusion to the Septuagint would have been a real stretch for the Corinthians to see on their own, but remember that Paul said that he had already told the Corinthians the story (1 Cor 15:3). Paul likely related all the events of v.15:3-9 in much greater detail previously.

Link to Numbers in the Septuagint (NETS):

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/04-num-nets.pdf

robert j.

Last edited by robert j on Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Paul as the Abortion?

Post by MrMacSon »

robert j wrote: But Paul wasn't writing to a general audience, he was writing to his congregation in Corinth. He was writing to a group of people that had heard the story before from Paul (1 Cor 15:1-3), likely in greater detail --- Paul was just reminding them here. And from Paul's letter to the Galatians, it seems Paul may have told the story to the Galatians before as well. (Gal 1:13).

robert j.
Yes, there are strong indications the Pauline texts show a re-telling or a reiteration.

Paul may have just been their literary agent - the central character for a sect or collection of like-minded communities.
robert j
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Re: Paul as the Abortion?

Post by robert j »


MrMacSon wrote,
Yes, there are strong indications the Pauline texts show a re-telling or a reiteration.

Paul may have just been their literary agent - the central character for a sect or collection of like-minded communities.

If the letters were written for a collection of “like-minded communities”, why are they so rife with arguments against skeptics and competitors in attempts to retain or re-gain authority?

Or, if the letters were written for the benefit of outsiders that may have held different beliefs, could they reasonably have expected others, especially Gentiles, to grasp the association of “as the ektroma” with the tale in Numbers 12?

robert j.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Paul as the Abortion?

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I think these texts were developed at a time of many competing Gnostic-belief-systems; they likely overlapped geographically and theologically; and each system or community likely changed over time
ghost
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Re: Paul as the Abortion?

Post by ghost »

robert j wrote:Paul's self-reference “as the ektroma” in 1 Corinthians 15:8 has spawned wide debate and a range of interpretations. Why would Paul refer to himself as a stillborn, a miscarriage, or an abortion? These are the best translations of the Greek term. Most translators have preferred to tone it down, and assume Paul just meant “untimely born” to match his claim to be “last” in his list of those that had “seen” the Christ.
Because Flavius (Paul) defected to the Divus Vespasianus cult:

http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/me ... nts13.html
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MrMacSon
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Re: Paul as the Abortion?

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ghost wrote: Because Flavius (Paul) defected to the Divus Vespasianus cult:

http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/me ... nts13.html
Wasn't Vespasian's family name Flavius?

(A family name Josephus assumed when after he was initially maintained by Vespasian as a hostage & interpreter after being overcome by Vespasian?)
ghost
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Re: Paul as the Abortion?

Post by ghost »

MrMacSon wrote:Wasn't Vespasian's family name Flavius?

(A family name Josephus assumed when after he was initially maintained by Vespasian as a hostage & interpreter after being overcome by Vespasian?)
:thumbup: Yes.
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toejam
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Re: Paul as the Abortion?

Post by toejam »

I think it's just Paul playing the "poor little me" line as he tends to do...
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steve43
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Re: Paul as the Abortion?

Post by steve43 »

Lots of interesting things about Paul.

One is his admission that he was trained in the Second Temple to be a priest, and one of his teachers was Gamaliel. Another was that he was a ring-leader in the early persecution of the Nazarenes, and had a hand- maybe even threw a stone-at Stephen the Martyr.

Assuming a late crucifixion (that Hagan and others use), that would mean that Jesus was crucified during the Passover of A.D. 36, and the stoning of Stephen some months afterwards at the urging of the High Priest Jonathan.

The question then becomes why didn't Paul know about Jesus a few months previously during the Passover of A.D. 36, at which Jesus was crucified and Caiaphas was later removed by Vitellius?

Did Paul (Saul of Tarsus) play a role in Jesus' death that was so heinous that he never referred to it in any of his writings, or admitted it to his traveling companion or fellow church-men?

That could go a long way in explaining Paul's motivation.
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Re: Paul as the Abortion?

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