A suggestion concerning secret sayings in gospel texts.

[Ben C. Smith]

Thus, of the gospel texts involved, Matthew and Mark stand in a first rank, Luke in a second, John in a third, and the Epistle of the Apostles either alongside John or in a fourth (because actually tallying the years is more specific than merely nullifying an interpretation of the beloved disciple's death). This procession agrees very well with the relevant texts on my list:

1. Gospel of Marcion, Gospel of Mark, Gospel of Matthew, Gospel of Philip (0).
2. Sophia of Jesus Christ, Dialogue of the Savior, Gospel of Luke (1).
3. Gospel of John (2).
4. Gospel of Judas, Gospel of Mary, Epistle of the Apostles, Gospel of the Ebionites, Infancy Gospel of James, Gospel of Peter, Infancy Gospel of Thomas (3).
5. Apocryphon of James, Apocryphon of John, Traditions of Matthias, Gospel of the Savior, Book of Thomas the Contender, Gospel of Thomas (4).

I have also suggested before on this forum that Papias knew the gospels of Matthew and Mark, but also that the gospels of Luke and especially John may have depended upon Papias (and not the other way around). If I am correct, then Papias would fit easily in between groups 1 and 2 on the list (call it group 1½, if you will, bearing in mind that the groupings are purely heuristic). I would not go so far as to suggest that this is another possible verification of the groupings themselves, but I have to admit, it is nice that it works out so well.

[MrMacSon]

Try this thought experiment on for size. Group the above texts according to how many hits they receive on the table:

1. Gospel of Marcion, Gospel of Mark, Gospel of Matthew, Gospel of Philip (0).
2. Sophia of Jesus Christ, Dialogue of the Savior, Gospel of Luke (1).
3. Gospel of John (2).
4. Gospel of Judas, Gospel of Mary, Epistle of the Apostles, Gospel of Peter (3).
5. Apocryphon of James, Apocryphon of John, Book of Thomas the Contender, Gospel of Thomas (4).

Ignore the dates for one gospel text vis-à-vis the other texts in the same group, and focus only on the dating1 of each group relative to the others1 (in other words, compare Mark to Luke, not to Marcion). How shocking would it be if it were to turn out that the above is the order of the layers in which our extant gospel tradition was penned over time? Which gospel texts would be the most surprising and stand out as not belonging at all to their proposed chronological group?

(This is all heuristic and experimental. Also, it does not in any way account for older materials being contained in newer gospels; only the current editorial form of the gospel is taken into account.)

1 Just a small clarification: I wonder if, and thus presume you mean, 'relative chronology' rather than 'dating'.

And I presume -seek clarification- that (0), (1), (2), etc at the ends mean '0' is reference to an base [level/ layer] - the first level.

[Ben C. Smith]

Try this thought experiment on for size. Group the above texts according to how many hits they receive on the table:

1. Gospel of Marcion, Gospel of Mark, Gospel of Matthew, Gospel of Philip (0).
2. Sophia of Jesus Christ, Dialogue of the Savior, Gospel of Luke (1).
3. Gospel of John (2).
4. Gospel of Judas, Gospel of Mary, Epistle of the Apostles, Gospel of Peter (3).
5. Apocryphon of James, Apocryphon of John, Book of Thomas the Contender, Gospel of Thomas (4).

Ignore the dates for one gospel text vis-à-vis the other texts in the same group, and focus only on the dating1 of each group relative to the others1 (in other words, compare Mark to Luke, not to Marcion). How shocking would it be if it were to turn out that the above is the order of the layers in which our extant gospel tradition was penned over time? Which gospel texts would be the most surprising and stand out as not belonging at all to their proposed chronological group?

(This is all heuristic and experimental. Also, it does not in any way account for older materials being contained in newer gospels; only the current editorial form of the gospel is taken into account.)

1 Just a small clarification: I wonder if, and thus presume you mean, 'relative chronology' rather than 'dating'.

Sure, if that helps. Or "relative dating," too.

And I presume -seek clarification- that (0), (1), (2), etc at the ends mean '0' is reference to an base [level/ layer] - the first level.

0 = 0 hits on the table (= 0 columns with a "yes" in them).

[MrMacSon]

0 = 0 hits on the table (= 0 columns with a "yes" in them).

Cheers Ben.

[JoeWallack]

Mark 4.10-12: 10 As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. 11 And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12 so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven."

...

1. The parable is not of Marcan origin. Mark likes to simplify spectra of humans into binary categories: insiders and outsiders, those "with me" and those "against me," those who will enter the kingdom and those who will not. (Mark is not alone in this Christian predilection.) The parable, however, dwells upon nuances.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2V6yjjPbX0

JW:
I think GMark is the original Gospel narrative and the excerpt fits its primary themes reMarkably well. Background Theory:

• 1) HJ had a teaching & healing ministry with followers.
  
  2) HJ followers promoted HJ (teaching & healing ministry).
  
  3) Paul promoted Jesus' supposed Passion.

GMark is written as a pre-Quelle to Paul and provides explanations for the relationship between 1-3 above. In general the major explanation is why Jesus' supposed Passion was not accepted/promoted by Jesus' audience.This is logically broken down by "Mark" into the three specific major categories of audience:

• 1) The Jews
  
  2) The Disciples
  
  3) The Jewish religious leaders

Audience	Verse	Reason for not accepting Jesus' Passion	Commentary
The Jews	4 11...but for those outside, everything comes in parables; 12 in order that‘they may indeed look, but not perceive, and may indeed listen, but not understand; so that they may not turn again and be forgiven.’”	The Jews of Jesus' time did not believe in Jesus' supposed Passion because they were not taught about Jesus' Passion.	This explains why revelation was needed to explain the significance of the supposed Passion to Paul.
The Disciples	10 When he was alone, those who were around him along with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret[a] of the kingdom of God	The Disciples were taught the significance of the supposed Passion but they did not accept/promote it or at least did not consider it primary.	This explains why revelation was needed to explain the significance of the supposed Passion to Paul and why Paul was in competition with the historical disciples.
The Jewish religious leaders	3 “Come forward.” 4 Then he said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the sabbath, to save life or to kill?” But they were silent. 5 He looked around at them with anger; he was grieved at their hardness of heart and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 The Pharisees went out and immediately conspired with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him.	Jesus is rejected before the supposed Passion because he chooses teaching & healing over ritual.	The rejection of Jesus' teaching & healing ministry sets up the role of the Jewish religious leadership in Jesus' supposed passion. They are ironically the instrument that generates Jesus' Passion.

Joseph

Is Palestinian Terrorism Good For Israel?

[Ben C. Smith]

Audience	Verse	Reason for not accepting Jesus' Passion	Commentary
The Jews	4 11...but for those outside, everything comes in parables; 12 in order that‘they may indeed look, but not perceive, and may indeed listen, but not understand; so that they may not turn again and be forgiven.’”	The Jews of Jesus' time did not believe in Jesus' supposed Passion because they were not taught about Jesus' Passion.	This explains why revelation was needed to explain the significance of the supposed Passion to Paul.
The Disciples	10 When he was alone, those who were around him along with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret[a] of the kingdom of God	The Disciples were taught the significance of the supposed Passion but they did not accept/promote it or at least did not consider it primary.	This explains why revelation was needed to explain the significance of the supposed Passion to Paul and why Paul was in competition with the historical disciples.
The Jewish religious leaders	3 “Come forward.” 4 Then he said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the sabbath, to save life or to kill?” But they were silent. 5 He looked around at them with anger; he was grieved at their hardness of heart and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 The Pharisees went out and immediately conspired with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him.	Jesus is rejected before the supposed Passion because he chooses teaching & healing over ritual.	The rejection of Jesus' teaching & healing ministry sets up the role of the Jewish religious leadership in Jesus' supposed passion. They are ironically the instrument that generates Jesus' Passion.

Joseph

Is Palestinian Terrorism Good For Israel?

The disciples belong to the second content row of your table (that of the insiders, so to speak), to be sure, and you have quoted (one of) the verse(s) that puts them there. But they also belong to the first row (that of the outsiders), as Mark 4.13 makes clear. Other verses, too, accuse the disciples of not understanding. This is hardly the only point in the gospel at which the disciples' status is not entirely fixed.

Furthermore, "He who has ears to hear" sounds very much like a description of understanding, not merely of hearing. Yet in the verse quoted from Isaiah, hearing and understanding are two wildly different things.

Hence my conclusion, however tentative, that Mark is imposing his binary categories (insiders and outsiders, for example) upon materials which were not originally binary (the four-step parable of the sower, the historical/legendary standing of the apostles, and so on).

YMMV.

[JoeWallack]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F9yd3chhfI

JW:

Description	GMark	GMatthew	GLuke	GJohn
Verse	Gospel Parallels 8:31 Then he began to teach them that the Son of Man must undergo great suffering, and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 He said all this quite openly.	16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised	9:22 "The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised."	-
Commentary	The superior Skeptic should note that the rejection of Jesus' supposed Passion is clearest in GMark. 1. "he began to teach them" = This is a summary statement and not a quote indicating the explanation of Jesus' supposed Passion is ongoing (so to speak) 2. "He said all this quite openly" = This is intentional contrast to the parables and secrets of the Teaching & Healing ministry. The Disciples are receiving clear information.	Subsequent Gospellers are gradually exorcising the clarity to try and defend the Markan Disciples' rejection of Jesus' supposed passion. The disciples' defense is that it was not clear to them. Note that "Matthew" retains "began" but exorcises "openly".	Now it's just a quote with no "openly".	The offending verse has been completely exorcised. Just what we would expect in the final canonical Gospel. "John" is primarily reaction to "Mark". Now the disciples believe in Jesus from the start.

Bonus material for Solo = since "Mark" wrote the original story there is no problem with his "on the third day be raised". Look at what precedes it, "the Son of Man must undergo great suffering, and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again." Three days after all this starts.


Joseph

The New Porphyry

[JoeWallack]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hNIX7V21pU

JW:

Description	GMark	GMatthew	GLuke	GJohn
Verse - First Passion Prediction	Gospel Parallels 8:31 Then he began to teach them that the Son of Man must undergo great suffering, and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 He said all this quite openly.	16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised	9:22 "The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised."	-
Commentary	The superior Skeptic should note that the rejection of Jesus' supposed Passion is clearest in GMark. 1. "he began to teach them" = This is a summary statement and not a quote indicating the explanation of Jesus' supposed Passion is ongoing (so to speak) 2. "He said all this quite openly" = This is intentional contrast to the parables and secrets of the Teaching & Healing ministry. The Disciples are receiving clear information.	Subsequent Gospellers are gradually exorcising the clarity to try and defend the Markan Disciples' rejection of Jesus' supposed passion. The disciples' defense is that it was not clear to them. Note that "Matthew" retains "began" but exorcises "openly".	Now it's just a quote with no "openly".	The offending verse has been completely exorcised. Just what we would expect in the final canonical Gospel. "John" is primarily reaction to "Mark". Now the disciples believe in Jesus from the start.
Verse - Second Passion Prediction	9.30 They went on from there and passed through Galilee. And he would not have any one know it; 9.31 for he was teaching his disciples, saying to them, "The Son of man will be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him; and when he is killed, after three days he will rise." 9.32 But they did not understand the saying, and they were afraid to ask him.	17.22 As they were gathering in Galilee, Jesus said to them, "The Son of man is to be delivered into the hands of men, 17.23 and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day." And they were greatly distressed.	9.43 And all were astonished at the majesty of God. But while they were all marveling at everything he did, he said to his disciples, 9.44 " Let these words sink into your ears; for the Son of man is to be delivered into the hands of men." 9.45 But they did not understand this saying, and it was concealed from them, that they should not perceive it; and they were afraid to ask him about this saying.	-
Commentary	1. Now "Mark" indicates that this Secret teaching of the Passion Plan was given over an even longer time period, while going through Galilee. 2. The reason for passing through in secret is to keep his Passion teaching to the disciples secret. 3. Note that the disciples response is the opposite of Jesus' effort. Jesus is verbose, clear and repetitive regarding the Passion (and with no distractions). They say nothing, are confused and give up. 4. Strange/bizarre/macabre that this no reaction is after the second dose of Passion teaching.	1. And now "Matthew" edits from time period to moment. Jesus said. 2. "Matthew" also edits that now they understand and changes the emotion to distressed. 3. General comment - Note the consistency here of GMark compared to GMatthew. GMatthew is gradually editing towards orthodox Christianity. Evidence that GMark is indeed the original source with no editing of an earlier source, unlike GMatthew.	"Luke" edits even further towards orthodox Christianity. "Luke" accepts her source that the disciples did not understand the Passion Plan but gives the reason why. The Divine Plan is that they were not supposed to at this point.	-

Joseph

The New Porphyry

[JoeWallack]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve3vqMg8xhk&t=132s

JW:

Description	GMark	GMatthew	GLuke	GJohn
Verse - First Passion Prediction	Gospel Parallels 8:31 Then he began to teach them that the Son of Man must undergo great suffering, and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 He said all this quite openly.	16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised	9:22 "The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised."	-
Commentary	The superior Skeptic should note that the rejection of Jesus' supposed Passion is clearest in GMark. 1. "he began to teach them" = This is a summary statement and not a quote indicating the explanation of Jesus' supposed Passion is ongoing (so to speak) 2. "He said all this quite openly" = This is intentional contrast to the parables and secrets of the Teaching & Healing ministry. The Disciples are receiving clear information.	Subsequent Gospellers are gradually exorcising the clarity to try and defend the Markan Disciples' rejection of Jesus' supposed passion. The disciples' defense is that it was not clear to them. Note that "Matthew" retains "began" but exorcises "openly".	Now it's just a quote with no "openly".	The offending verse has been completely exorcised. Just what we would expect in the final canonical Gospel. "John" is primarily reaction to "Mark". Now the disciples believe in Jesus from the start.
Verse - Second Passion Prediction	9.30 They went on from there and passed through Galilee. And he would not have any one know it; 9.31 for he was teaching his disciples, saying to them, "The Son of man will be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him; and when he is killed, after three days he will rise." 9.32 But they did not understand the saying, and they were afraid to ask him.	17.22 As they were gathering in Galilee, Jesus said to them, "The Son of man is to be delivered into the hands of men, 17.23 and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day." And they were greatly distressed.	9.43 And all were astonished at the majesty of God. But while they were all marveling at everything he did, he said to his disciples, 9.44 " Let these words sink into your ears; for the Son of man is to be delivered into the hands of men." 9.45 But they did not understand this saying, and it was concealed from them, that they should not perceive it; and they were afraid to ask him about this saying.	-
Commentary	1. Now "Mark" indicates that this Secret teaching of the Passion Plan was given over an even longer time period, while going through Galilee. 2. The reason for passing through in secret is to keep his Passion teaching to the disciples secret. 3. Note that the disciples response is the opposite of Jesus' effort. Jesus is verbose, clear and repetitive regarding the Passion (and with no distractions). They say nothing, are confused and give up. 4. Strange/bizarre/macabre that this no reaction is after the second dose of Passion teaching.	1. And now "Matthew" edits from time period to moment. Jesus said. 2. "Matthew" also edits that now they understand and changes the emotion to distressed. 3. General comment - Note the consistency here of GMark compared to GMatthew. GMatthew is gradually editing towards orthodox Christianity. Evidence that GMark is indeed the original source with no editing of an earlier source, unlike GMatthew.	"Luke" edits even further towards orthodox Christianity. "Luke" accepts her source that the disciples did not understand the Passion Plan but gives the reason why. The Divine Plan is that they were not supposed to at this point.	-
Verse - Third Passion Prediction	10.32 And they were on the road, going up to Jerusalem, and Jesus was walking ahead of them; and they were amazed, and those who followed were afraid. And taking the twelve again, he began to tell them what was to happen to him, 10.33 saying, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man will be delivered to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death, and deliver him to the Gentiles; 10.34 and they will mock him, and spit upon him, and scourge him, and kill him; and after three days he will rise."	20.17 And as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside, and on the way he said to them, 20.18 "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man will be delivered to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death, 20.19 and deliver him to the Gentiles to be mocked and scourged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day."	18.31 And taking the twelve, he said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written of the Son of man by the prophets will be accomplished. 18.32 For he will be delivered to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and shamefully treated and spit upon; 18.33 they will scourge him and kill him, and on the third day he will rise." 18.34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was hid from them, and they did not grasp what was said.	-

Joseph

Are Arab Peace Agreements Bad For The Palestinians?