Jesus from Outer Space

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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maryhelena
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Jesus from Outer Space

Post by maryhelena » Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:18 am

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Amazon: The earliest Christians believed Jesus was an ancient celestial being who put on a bodysuit of flesh, died at the hands of dark forces, and then rose from the dead and ascended back into the heavens. But the writing we have today from that first generation of Christians never says where they thought he landed, where he lived, or where he died. The idea that Jesus toured Galilee and visited Jerusalem arose only a lifetime later, in unsourced legends written in a foreign land and language. Many sources repeat those legends, but none corroborate them. Why? What exactly was the original belief about Jesus, and how did this belief change over time? In Jesus from Outer Space, noted philosopher and historian Richard Carrier summarizes for a popular audience the scholarly research on these and related questions, revealing in turn how modern attempts to conceal, misrepresent, or avoid the actual evidence calls into question the entire field of Jesus studies--and present-day beliefs about how Christianity began.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1634311949/ ... _lig_dp_it

Written for 'a popular audience'. Jesus from Outer Space. The title is probably from the book's publisher. However, it's a title that might just make the casual bookshop browser shake their head and walk on....The very idea that Christianity is nothing more than some science fiction type scenario is weird not engaging.

Both the 'outer space' Jesus story and the baby in a manger gospel story are allegories not history. What Richard Carrier should be doing is not putting a 'bodysuit of flesh' on his 'outer space' Jesus - a shape shifting story if ever there was one - but turn to philosophy. Philosophy, after all, is about thinking things. For instance, ' the Word became flesh' reflects how modern people often talk about putting flesh on ideas i.e. put some substance on ones ideas. Ideas become 'flesh' when given some identifiable reality i.e. anything from building great cathedrals to creating the digital world of today. Ideas, as it were, come down to earth. They live amongst us. That's our lived reality. 'Outer space' Jesus putting on a 'bodysuit of flesh' has no relevance for that lived experience. Richard Carrier needs to get real....

However, Carrier is right to focus on 'outer space' as the primary focus of the NT story. It's our intellectual world that contributed to where we are today. But that NT primary focus does not exclude the flesh and blood reality we also inhabit. The gospel story still has to be dealt with. It's a story, like our own, placed within a historical context. That historical context remains - even though the gospel Jesus character that inhabits that historical context is a literary figure.

Two allegories - 'outer space' Jesus and baby Jesus in a manger. Read at face value both stories are fantasy. Read as allegories: Jesus in 'outer space' is a philosophical allegory. The baby Jesus in a manager story is a political allegory. In other words; the reality behind both stories is bound up with a historical context that lead to a new philosophical world view. Yes, we can run with the new philosophical 'outer space' Jesus - but we won't run very far. Our feet have to retain a foothold on terra ferma. History, especially for those interested in early christian origins, has a role to play. A literary Jesus figure does not, as it were, give Jesus ahistoricists a pass card for historical enquiry.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats

davidmartin
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Re: Jesus from Outer Space

Post by davidmartin » Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:46 am

It's the same thing, it's all abstracting everything away to some remote intellectual level, whether it be outer space or some political allegory
People think that abstracting away is the way forward instead of using the tools provided (even if they are stone tools) and using them
Those that do this abstracting exist in their own bubble and think that the debate is being won or lost there, missing the reality on the ground entirely
If they really cared about the outcome they would see this but they are blinded by their own hubris - leaving the outcome to others who lack their education
Come back down to earth and reality, work at the level where your eyes are the same height as your audiences, as Jesus himself appears to have done
Because that is where things will be decided. I think what is needed is a reality check. Bubbles pop.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Jesus from Outer Space

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:00 am

maryhelena wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:18 am
Image

Amazon: The earliest Christians believed Jesus was an ancient celestial being who put on a bodysuit of flesh, died at the hands of dark forces, and then rose from the dead and ascended back into the heavens. But the writing we have today from that first generation of Christians never says where they thought he landed, where he lived, or where he died. The idea that Jesus toured Galilee and visited Jerusalem arose only a lifetime later, in unsourced legends written in a foreign land and language. Many sources repeat those legends, but none corroborate them. Why? What exactly was the original belief about Jesus, and how did this belief change over time? In Jesus from Outer Space, noted philosopher and historian Richard Carrier summarizes for a popular audience the scholarly research on these and related questions, revealing in turn how modern attempts to conceal, misrepresent, or avoid the actual evidence calls into question the entire field of Jesus studies--and present-day beliefs about how Christianity began.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1634311949/ ... _lig_dp_it
Oh. :facepalm: Wow.

I attended high school in El Cajon, a suburb of San Diego, California, and it was there that a classmate of mine and I put together a video report about a local group called Unarius. This group believed (and apparently still believes) in past lives, a confederation of planets, psychic powers, archangelic alternate selves, and "space brothers" who are supposed to be coming to earth soon to invite us to join the space confederation.

Anyway, Unarius has its own, shall we say, aesthetic, and that book cover whooshed me right back into my teen years for a moment. I mean, to find a book with that cover on the shelves of the Unarius Academy of Science building in beautiful downtown El Cajon, California, would occasion absolutely no surprise whatsoever:

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Giuseppe
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Re: Jesus from Outer Space

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:35 am

The cover and the title are a subtle way to insult what they - the early Christians - believed.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Jesus from Outer Space

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:16 am

I may have mentioned this before but I have an outer space story which is pretty 'out there.' When I was about 21 I had just finished university and had a job in an insurance company. I was going to do the normal thing - get a regular job, have kids, a house. Got hired in an insurance company and that was supposed to be my life. Anyway, I got fired within three months (in Canada they only have a three month trial period before you can take your employer to a government council at least back in my day). I used to look sort of like a male stripper or a hairdresser so when I went to an employment agency the young lady said 'I'd be perfect for entertainment' and I went for an interview at an establishment called King Entertainment in Toronto near the CNE. Anyway I decided I'd avoid making reference to being fired and I was young so I had to make up my resume. This hippy Jewish lady (who later worked for me) hated me on site and checked my resume while I was being interviewed and stormed in to Don Cowan's office (my boss) 'He's lying. These references are fake.' I thought it was over. Don said, 'He's a liar, cheat, dishonest - he's perfect for our line of work.' I was hired.

Anyway, what I didn't know was that 'King' was a reference to the original owner of the company, George King, he was a blind former musician - I think of Chinese descent - who built up this business mostly built on strippers (which used to be the only form of entertainment that was ever brought for conventions which back in the day were exclusively male). Don was George's accountant. When George died Don took over and had successfully transformed his business model to meet the demands of the workplace (no more strippers at conventions and meetings). There were however a few 'old clients' like Magneto Electric and a few blue collar gatherings that still needed strippers. Ellen Budge used to work in his office too. She was former stripper named 'Blue Velvet' who apparently was famous for giving 'favors' for extra money.

I didn't know any of this when I was hired. Although I should have noticed a few of the mannequins dressed in lingerie at the back of the office. Anyway, one day as part of my 'apprenticeship' a call came in from Magneto Electric. Someone had to round up some strippers. They assumed that I would like the job and at the time I was rather excited to get paid to go scout out some dancers. I thought I had good taste in women. My wife is very pretty. My son always emphasizes he looks more like her than me (even though that's a stretch). I had a license but didn't own a car so Don gave me his. I went out with my Italian best friend Peter and we're at the House of Lancaster near Lakeshore in Toronto. I see this very un-stripper-like beautiful woman. She speaks French. We're engaged in bavardage. I notice during the course of our conversation she has a neckless with a swastika inside of a star of David. A light goes off in my head.

Five years earlier I think I was on acid or something and I end up at the Psychic Fair - a place where all these New Age people were gathered (but I don't think that term had been invented yet or was widely used). After getting into an argument about whether eating an egg was evil with a Hare Krishna I end up at the Raelian booth. I had read Erich von Daniken so I knew a lot of the ideas they were into. https://www.google.com/search?q=realian ... e&ie=UTF-8 But I didn't pay attention or didn't know at the time that they were recruiting strippers and sex workers as 'apostles' for their nutty religion which involves preparing women for receiving the sperm of aliens.

So to make a long story short, she agrees to do the show. Her and a friend. I don't remember the name of her blonde friend. It was my first time driving a big fancy car. The guys at Magneto Electric had never seen two ethereal beings like this before. No extra favors or anything like that. That would have scandalized me back then. I think I was still virginal in my thinking. I had skipped a grade etc. Anyway, it was a long trip. I never do anything like that again. But we stayed friends. She gave me her number. I remember it was written on the back of a House of Lancaster matchbook. She invites me to Montreal (apparently bikers used to organize these shuttles from Montreal to Toronto Montreal being capitol of stripping in Canada at the time). You can get a topless haircut on St Catherine's street back in the day.

So I still didn't know they had these 'preparatory orgies' in this cult. She's trying to evangelize me to their culture. I am very virginal. We get to the center and I start figuring out this is not kosher. I am like, thanks but no thanks. This isn't for me. I don't think anyone had refused or ran away from unlimited sex before in the history of this organization. Anyway I stayed in Montreal for the weekend. The food was very good. She was a sweet person. Kind of deranged for being in this cult. She eventually left. We stayed in touch. That's my outer space story.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Jesus from Outer Space

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:17 am

Ben if you are still in San Diego so see my show this weekend. We finish at the San Diego Safari Park in Escondido. It's really good. I'll get you comps.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Jesus from Outer Space

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:25 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:17 am
Ben if you are still in San Diego so see my show this weekend. We finish at the San Diego Safari Park in Escondido. It's really good. I'll get you comps.
Sorry, but I live nowhere near California now. It has been more than two decades since I even visited.

Had to look up the San Diego Safari Park, since I fondly remember visiting something called the San Diego Wild Animal Park as a child. I see on Wikipedia that these are the same Park, the name having changed 10 years ago.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Jesus from Outer Space

Post by Joseph D. L. » Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:30 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:35 am
The cover and the title are a subtle way to insult what they - the early Christians - believed.
It isn't subtle and an insult is only effective if it's true.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Jesus from Outer Space

Post by Joseph D. L. » Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:46 am


The earliest Christians believed Jesus was an ancient celestial being who put on a bodysuit of flesh, died at the hands of dark forces, and then rose from the dead and ascended back into the heavens.

Already we are in murky territory.

First there wasn't a distinction between "celestial" and "heaven". What is Carrier even saying with this? I thought he believed the entire Jesus drama took place in the celestial spheres. Then how can Jesus ascend to the place he died?

Secondly, doesn't Carrier believe that Pauline Christianity represents the earliest ideas about Christ? Then how can he say Jesus put on a "bodysuit of flesh" when that's not what Paul said in 1 Cor 15?

But the writing we have today from that first generation of Christians never says where they thought he landed, where he lived, or where he died.



What is Carrier even saying? If Paul is anything to go off of, than it was in Galatia. If Marcion is anything to go off of, it was Capernaum. The Gospels all say he lived in Palestine, and they all say he died there as well. And if Carrier's entire theory is about a celestial origin of Jesus, then he is making a loaded statement.

The idea that Jesus toured Galilee and visited Jerusalem arose only a lifetime later, in unsourced legends written in a foreign land and language.

Carrier has no evidence for this claim.

Many sources repeat those legends, but none corroborate them. Why? What exactly was the original belief about Jesus, and how did this belief change over time?



None corroborate them? Gospel of Luke doesn't exist???

In Jesus from Outer Space, noted philosopher and historian Richard Carrier...



Noted by who? The fringe group of cultists who gather around Carrier like an idol? He is ignored by the greater scholarly community and his ideas were soundly rejected by them, even those who "peer reviewed" his book, because "peer review" is somehow a measurement of your works validity, even when it is disproved by those same people who "peer reviewed" it.

...

...

"Peer reviewed."

... summarizes for a popular audience the scholarly research on these and related questions, revealing in turn how modern attempts to conceal, misrepresent, or avoid the actual evidence calls into question the entire field of Jesus studies--and present-day beliefs about how Christianity began.

So conspiracy theories. The entire field of scholarship rejects my pet theories so they must be wrong and not me! Doesn't that just take away the credibility of "peer review" that Carrier basally built On the Historicity of Jesus on? And Carrier has the audacity to insult Acharya S's work? Fuck Richard Carrier. And fuck you Giuseppe. Fuck anyone who thinks Carrier is anything more than disingenuous fraud.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Jesus from Outer Space

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:52 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:30 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:35 am
The cover and the title are a subtle way to insult what they - the early Christians - believed.
It isn't subtle and an insult is only effective if it's true.
the Christian apologists deserve insult. Always.

Joseph D.L. ==Tim O'Neill.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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