Jesus from Outer Space

[maryhelena]

Mythicists, says Bermejo-Rubio, ''they leave the problem of the Gospels unresolved, the nature of their distortions ultimately untouched, and the embarrassing history these biased sources try to veil unfortunately unrecovered.''

If only we had an independent confirmation of his seditious Jesus, then I would be his more eager apostle in this forum!

Well, now, methinks anyone that finds confirmation of a seditious gospel Jesus will get a Nobel Prize.

But what can be done is set Hasmonean history alongside the gospel story of a seditious Jesus.

The consensus, scholarly, dating for the crucifixion of the gospel Jesus are the years running from 30 to 33 c.e.
Hasmonean history, 70 years earlier, deals with the last King and High Priest of the Jews, Antigonus II Mattathias - 40 - 37 b.c.
Executed, crucified, by the Roman Marc Antony around 37/36 b.c.

Yes, of course, there is more to the gospel story than the crucifixion of it's 'king of the Jews' figure. But the very least this connection between 40 -37 b.c. and 30 -33 c.e. indicates - 70 years - is that it was Hasmonean history that was relevant to the gospel writers. Those gospel writers are remembering - just as we remember the anniversaries of our history today - that we acknowledge our past - warts and all.

[maryhelena]

Two recent rememberance days in the UK

Join us in marking the 75th anniversary of VJ Day
Through our programme of activity, the Legion will be highlighting the forgotten history of those who fought in the conflict and the atrocious and harrowing conditions in which they served and were held prisoner.

https://www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-in ... orld%20War.

When VE Day dawns on 8th May 2020 it will be 75 years since the guns fell silent at the end of the war in Europe.
The 75th anniversary will provide our nation, and our friends around the world, with an opportunity to reflect on the enormous sacrifice, courage and determination of people from all walks of life who saw us through this dark and terrifying period. ....

To commemorate this important time we are organising VE Day 75, a three-day international celebration that will take place from 8th May to 10th May 2020.

https://www.veday75.org

Now, if in our modern sophisticated society, we deem it important to remember our past history - why not give those gospel writers the same opportunity to honour their past history - and their dead. Living under Rome, under occupation, what avenues were open to them - methinks, story telling, writing allegories, was one way they could get past the Roman censors.

---------------------

Yep - and the Irish wrote songs during the years of occupation.....


Were apples still grow in November
where blossoms still bloom from each tree
where leaves are still green in November
its then that our land will be free
I wander her hills and her valleys
and still through my sorrows I see
a land that has never known freedom
and only her rivers run free
I drink to the death of her manhood
those men who rather have died
than to live in the cold chains of bondage
to bring back there rights were denied

[Charles Wilson]

Well, now, methinks anyone that finds confirmation of a seditious gospel Jesus will get a Nobel Prize.

Well, then, pack it up nice like and send it to me in Florida. If the Award Ceremony is before 10:30 Eastern time, I'll make sure the sheets are clean. I might be sleeping in that day. I wouldn't want to get the Chinese Virus from any of them European types.

But what can be done is set Hasmonean history alongside the gospel story of a seditious Jesus.

Which I've done, chapter and verse, and not just "Antigone" (You can look up that Joke in Josephus) but the entire sordid Story, including where the Hasmoneans lived and who also claimed that the Hasmoneans came from them ("Jehoiarib", from Meiron and "Immer", living in Jabnit, just down the road from Meiron, respectively.).

I think personally that a Nobel would look real good hanging next to the bathroom mirror.

The consensus, scholarly, dating for the crucifixion of the gospel Jesus are the years running from 30 to 33 c.e.
Hasmonean history, 70 years earlier, deals with the last King and High Priest of the Jews, Antigonus II Mattathias - 40 - 37 b.c.
Executed, crucified, by the Roman Marc Antony around 37/36 b.c.

That is True but there is so much more of the Story in the NT than merely that:

'Anna the Prophetess - Queen Salome (NOT Salome Alexandra), Luke 2
Herod's Temple - The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" GJohn
Antigonus -If you want to make that the most important Marker, feel free.
The Woman Bent Over for 18 years - Marking 10 BCE.
"The Woman with the 12 Year Issue of Blood - This points to not only the Atrocity that occurred but to the "Second Crucifixion, the real one, in John.
Jairus' Daughter - His daughter is 12 years old and the Political Movement will end unless a particular Priest will make one more attempt to end the Herodian and Roman Mis-Rule. The Coup will start during Bilgah's Duty and end with the Re-Dedication of the Temple, probably a tent, three days later.

There is so much more...

Yes, of course, there is more to the gospel story than the crucifixion of it's 'king of the Jews' figure. But the very least this connection between 40 -37 b.c. and 30 -33 c.e. indicates - 70 years - is that it was Hasmonean history that was relevant to the gospel writers. Those gospel writers are remembering - just as we remember the anniversaries of our history today - that we acknowledge our past - warts and all.

All True.
***
I'm not against you, maryhelena. Your criticism:

After all, if it's an understanding of early christian origins we seek, then adding two interpretations together, one from the OT and another from the gospels, is of no help. That way is admiring the dressing and closing ones eyes to the blood and guts of the historical framework underlying the gospel story.

is an odd one since that is in no way what I'm doing. The criticism is nonsensical in any event. 3000 people murdered in the Temple and surrounds is "blood-and-guts" enough for starters.

I'm always interested in the Theories surrounding 30 - 33 AD and I would love to read of your discoveries there.

Best to you, maryhelena. Truly,

CW

[maryhelena]

All True.
***
I'm not against you, maryhelena. Your criticism:

="maryhelena"]After all, if it's an understanding of early christian origins we seek, then adding two interpretations together, one from the OT and another from the gospels, is of no help. That way is admiring the dressing and closing ones eyes to the blood and guts of the historical framework underlying the gospel story.

is an odd one since that is in no way what I'm doing. The criticism is nonsensical in any event. 3000 people murdered in the Temple and surrounds is "blood-and-guts" enough for starters.

I'm always interested in the Theories surrounding 30 - 33 AD and I would love to read of your discoveries there.

Best to you, maryhelena. Truly,


CW

That paragraph was generalising not specific to your post.....

[Charles Wilson]

*Whew*--Thank you for clarifying that!!!
Now perhaps we can move on to convincing others of what is plainly true here...

[maryhelena]

Richard Carrier

For the Existence of Jesus, Is the Principle of Contamination Invalid? Cavin & Colombetti vs. Law

Nor are his sayings across the Gospels at all consistent enough to have even come from a “single” personality (the fallacy of excluding everything that doesn’t fit and then concluding what remains “miraculously” coheres, I already explained when Bermejo-Rubio did it).

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13461

Carrier needs to see behind his blind spot here. Just because one can view, interpret, the gospel Jesus figure as not being a historical figure - even when his mythological dressing is removed - does not mean that's the end of debate over the gospel story. In fact only then can the debate begin. i.e. if the gospel Jesus is a literary construct - what is it's purpose, why is this literary figure placed within a specific historical context?

Yes, it's easy for Carrier to knock the historical position of Bermejo-Rubio. What he can't knock is that the writers of the gospels have attributed a seditious, revolutionary aspect, to their literary Jesus figure. Of course, this can simply be the gospel writers own imagination - but even then the question arises what in heavens name would they gain from so doing. The gospel writers have created a contradictory figure of their literary Jesus. From 'turn the other cheek' to having a seditionist crucified. Indeed, there are many aspects to our personality without us becoming a Jekyll and Hyde. However, in the context of Roman occupation, preaching two conflicting messages would set such a preacher at odds with both sides; those wanting no trouble with Rome and keeping the peace and those wanting to take the fight for freedom to the Romans.

Creating a composite literary figure would be one way for the gospel writers to accomplish what they wanted to say. That way aspects of past history could be accommodated by being brought together in one literary figure.

Ian Fleming created the fictional character of James Bond as the central figure for his works. Bond is an intelligence officer in the Secret Intelligence Service, commonly known as MI6. Bond is known by his code number, 007, and was a Royal Naval Reserve Commander. Fleming based his fictional creation on a number of individuals he came across during his time in the Naval Intelligence Division and 30 Assault Unit during the Second World War, admitting that Bond "was a compound of all the secret agents and commando types I met during the war".


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bon ... nspiration

If this is what the gospel writers have done with their literary Jesus figure - then Fernando Bermejo-Rubio has done considerable work in identifying one element of the composite literary figure the gospel writers have created.

[Paul the Uncertain]

However, in the context of Roman occupation, preaching two conflicting messages would set such a preacher at odds with both sides; those wanting no trouble with Rome and keeping the peace and those wanting to take the fight for freedom to the Romans.

To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.

A strategic thinker, fictional or fleshly, could estimate in the 30's that sooner or later there would be a time when Rome is vulnerable. For example, if an emperor were to die suddenly and there was confusion about who should succeed him - as did happen a generation after Jesus's time, and would be known to have happened by the author of Mark in all plausible estimates of composition date.

There is nothing contradictory in the advice to wait for your opportunity and In the meantime, do what is necessary to survive. When that time comes, seize the day; not now.

If we're looking for modern parallels, consider the Irish struggles against the United Kingdom early in the last century. England's trouble is Ireland's opportunity. And so it was; to get some degree of Irish cooperation with the WW I effort, concessions were made. A nation once again. Somewhat similarly, India and WW II.

[maryhelena]

However, in the context of Roman occupation, preaching two conflicting messages would set such a preacher at odds with both sides; those wanting no trouble with Rome and keeping the peace and those wanting to take the fight for freedom to the Romans.

To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.

A strategic thinker, fictional or fleshly, could estimate in the 30's that sooner or later there would be a time when Rome is vulnerable. For example, if an emperor were to die suddenly and there was confusion about who should succeed him - as did happen a generation after Jesus's time, and would be known to have happened by the author of Mark in all plausible estimates of composition date.

There is nothing contradictory in the advice to wait for your opportunity and In the meantime, do what is necessary to survive. When that time comes, seize the day; not now.

If we're looking for modern parallels, consider the Irish struggles against the United Kingdom early in the last century. England's trouble is Ireland's opportunity. And so it was; to get some degree of Irish cooperation with the WW I effort, concessions were made. A nation once again.

While Ireland eventually became a nation once again - albeit minus the partition - the Jewish people lost their fight against Rome. Yes, of course, Jewish hopes, as with the Irish, would always hope for freedom. Yes, one can imagine that skirmishes could well be nothing out of the ordinary within an occupied territory. However, like today, it's also likely that it's the big conflicts that would be remembered. For the Jews that would be the loss of sovereignty in 63 b.c. and the execution of the last king and high priest in 37/36 b.c. For the Irish - occupation lasted a much longer period of time with many a rebellion taking place.

"Boolavogue" is an Irish ballad commemorating the campaign of Father John Murphy and his army in County Wexford during the Irish Rebellion of 1798. It was composed by Patrick Joseph McCall in 1898, the centenary of the Rebellion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolavogue_(song)

At Boolavogue as the sun was setting
O'er the bright May meadows of Shelmalier,
A rebel hand set the heather blazing
And brought the neighbours from far and near.

Then Father Murphy from old Kilcormack
Spurred up the rocks with a warning cry:
'Arm! Arm!' he cried, 'For I've come to lead you;
For Ireland's freedom we'll fight or die!'

He led us on against the coming soldiers,
And the cowardly yeomen we put to flight:
'Twas at the Harrow the boys of Wexford
Showed Bookey's regiment how men could fight.

Look out for hirelings, King George of England;
Search every kingdom where breathes a slave,
For Father Murphy of County Wexford
Sweeps o'er the land like a mighty wave.

We took Camolin and Enniscorthy
And Wexford storming drove out our foes
'Twas at Slieve Coilte our pikes were reeking
With the crimson blood of the beaten Yeos.

At Tubberneering and Ballyellis
Full many a Hessian lay in his gore,
Ah! Father Murphy had aid come over
The green flag floated from shore to shore!

At Vinegar Hill, o'er the pleasant Slaney
Our heroes vainly stood back to back,
and the Yeos at Tullow took Father Murphy
and burned his body upon a rack.

God grant you glory, brave Father Murphy
And open Heaven to all your men,
The cause that called you may call tomorrow
In another fight for the Green again.

Easter Rising 1916

Grace:

As we gather in the chapel here in old Kilmainham Jail
I think about these past few weeks, oh will they say we've failed
From our schooldays they have told us we must yearn for liberty
Yet all I want in this dark place is to have you here with me.

CHORUS
Oh Grace just hold me in your arms and let this moment linger
They'll take me out at dawn and I will die
With all my love I place this wedding ring upon your finger
There won't be time to share our love for we must say goodbye.

Now I know it's hard for you my love to ever understand
The love I bear for these brave men, my love for this dear land
But when the Padhraic called me to his side down in the GPO
I had to leave my own sick bed, to him I had to go CHORUS

Now as dawn is breaking, my heart is breaking too,
On this May morn as I walk out my thoughts well be of you
And I'll write some words upon the wall so everyone will know
I love so much that I could see his blood upon the rose. CHORUS

Nothing happened under Pilate in Judea that can compare to the events of 63 b.c. and 37 b.c. These dates are important dates in Jewish history - that the gospel writers found no relevance to these dates for their Jesus stories would be, to say the least, puzzling.

As already mentioned above. The gospels place their Jesus crucifixion stories somewhere between 30 - 33 .c.e. That is 70 years from 40 - 37 b.c.

Luke places the birth story of his Jesus figure around 6 c.e. (Quirinius being governor of Syria 6 - 12 c.e. ) around 70 years from the historical events of 63 b.c.

Living under occupation the Jews liked their allegories - the Irish liked their songs.

[Paul the Uncertain]

While Ireland eventually became a nation once again - albeit minus the partition - the Jewish people lost their fight against Rome. Yes, of course, Jewish hopes, as with the Irish, would always hope for freedom. Yes, one can imagine that skirmishes could well be nothing out of the ordinary within an occupied territory. However, like today, it's also likely that it's the big conflicts that would be remembered. For the Jews that would be the loss of sovereignty in 63 b.c. and the execution of the last king and high priest in 37/36 b.c. For the Irish - occupation lasted a much longer period of time with many a rebellion taking place.

Fortunes of war. The occupied peoples had their chances. The Irish got most of our island (and for a brief time, until Brexit, no borders marking the partition, except some faded painted strips in the roadways - looks like victory to me.) The Jewish uprising turned out less well. Still arguably a better shot than they had in the 30's.

And yes, the Irish did have their history of abortive uprisings - but some of us did rather well with William of Orange, which some people saw as an "uprising" within the "mother country's" politics.

Anyway, Mark's story is much simpler than the long sad history of Ireland. Maybe that's why we're so noted for our sad songs.

These dates are important dates in Jewish history - that the gospel writers found no relevance to these dates for their Jesus stories would be, to say the least, puzzling.

Most Americans couldn't tell you what the Pine Tree Riot was. Compared with 1620 or 1776, it was no big deal. A hell of a story, though, and there is a book about it currently. Just it, because it's a good story in its own right, and a writer needs nobody's permission to write about what interests them.

As already mentioned above. The gospels place their Jesus crucifixion stories somewhere between 30 - 33 .c.e. That is 70 years from 40 - 37 b.c.

Luke places the birth story of his Jesus figure around 6 c.e. (Quirinius being governor of Syria 6 - 12 c.e. ) around 70 years from the historical events of 63 b.c.

OK, Luke added to Mark's literary achievement. It's still Mark's story, and he set it about a generation before the big show (if he was writing in 65, then he doesn't know they'd lose - even if he may have had his suspicions).

[davidmartin]

Fortunes of war. The occupied peoples had their chances. The Irish got most of our island (and for a brief time, until Brexit, no borders marking the partition, except some faded painted strips in the roadways - looks like victory to me.) The Jewish uprising turned out less well. Still arguably a better shot than they had in the 30's

Victory to join the EU socialist superstate and become a vassal? You sold yourselves out
Sure, that is a great victory that songs will be made for years to come