List of Mythicists who placed the crucifixion of Paul's Jesus in Outer Space

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Giuseppe
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List of Mythicists who placed the crucifixion of Paul's Jesus in Outer Space

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:17 am

This is a list of Mythicists who:
  • (1) accept the authenticity of at least 4 pauline epistles
  • (2) place the death of Paul's Jesus in Outer Space
Only Kalthoff doesn't satisfy the point 1.

They are the only Mythicists worthy of attention and respect by Giuseppe Ferri.


The Jesus being a divine personality variously and titanically conceived — now as a Lamb, now as a High Priest, now as Alpha and Omega, now as Son of Man, amid the candlesticks — this sacrifice, this death, this resuscitation are all to be understood as supernal, over-earthly transactions, extra-spatial and extra-temporal, and by no means necessarily carried out here on the Palestinian stage.
If one asks just how this sacrifice was effected, the answer must be that the question is unreasonable. The writers themselves had no clear ideas on the subject. They were dealing with vast and vague notions of heavenly happenings, of which it was impossible to form any exact Gaussian "constructible mental image." Deity dying and coming to life, the great High Priest offering up himself, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world—such gigantic conceptions defy the limitations of sense-presentment. What happens when serious attempt is made to depict them historically may be seen in the Gospels.

(William Benjamin Smith, Ecce Deus, p. 92)


But the death of the Christ of the Epistles is not the natural termination of a human life ; it is something metaphysical, a drama enacted between heaven and earth.
The resurrection, also, is taken entirely out of the sphere of earth, so that the question whether it means the restoration of one who was only apparently dead, or the revivification of a dead man, never comes within the range of the Epistles.

(Albert Kalthoff, The rise of Christianity, p. 17)


As the Archons are of astral origin, so also may the "crucifixion" have been; for in an astronomical chart the sun is apparently crucified upon the intersecting lines of the equator and the ecliptic at the moment of his descent into the lower hemisphere, the hemisphere of darkness and death; and is so again at the moment of his resurrection into the hemisphere of light and life; while the period of transit is three days. The sun, of course, was worshipped long before he became one of the seven Archons. At the time when the myth of the death of the Sun-god originated, the sun, being in the constellation Aries at the Spring equinox, was identified with the Ram. That is the Lamb which had been "slain from the foundation of the world."
The custom of dressing the paschal lamb in the shape of a cross is referable to the same myth. Obviously the scene of the killing of a spiritual Christ by malevolent spiritual Archons was not anywhere upon the earth; and there is nothing in the Pauline Gnostic Epistles which need be understood as implying an individual incarnation.

(Gordon Louis Rylands, The beginnings of Gnostic Christianity, p. )


But the character of Pilate, as described in Luke and the other evangelists, is entirely opposed to all that we know of the man; and it is not certain that we have not here an astral myth, in which the Homo pilatus (the javelin-man Orion) played a part, converted into history on the strength of a similarity of name with the Roman procurator Pilate, and that the whole story was not on this account placed in the time of the first two Roman emperors.

(Arthur Drews, The Christ Myth)


Where in the history has the death-resurrection of Jesus to be fixed? It was natural to place it at the end of the times, just before the Christophanies accorded to Peter, the Twelve, the five hundred brothers of Jerusalem. It will be difficult now to keep it above the earth. Why would it not take place on earth? The author of Hebrews, an idealist if ever there was one, does not reach this conclusion at all. For him, the priestly sacrifice of Jesus, however temporal it may be, is by no means an event of this world. It took place outside the world and Christians must leave the world if they want to meet the Crucified One: «Jesus suffered outside the door of the city to sanctify the people. So let us also go out of the camp to go to him, bringing his abomination, because we have no lasting city down here» (13:12).

(Paul-Louis Couchoud, Le dieu Jésus, original cursive)


In short, Paul's Christ is out of time, out of the physical world. It is a dream of the sick and it is this dream that is presented to us as an undisputed testimony of a well-informed contemporary!

(E. Moutier-Rousset, La légende de Jésus)


Finally, it is the Apocalypse that, with a daring flight, takes us to heaven. We see in particular the trumpets, the chalices and the candelabra, and also a lamb that seems to have been "sacrificed since the foundation of the world" (13:8). This is at least what Pascal (Thought 685), Alfaric and many others who have against them Revelation 17:8 and for them the First Epistle of Peter (1:20). They think of the bull of Mithras sacrificed in the sky since the origin of the world. Unfortunately the text is obscure.

(Georges Las Vergnas, Jésus-Christ a-t-il existé?)


Considering the second passage, Loisy, in 1938, rejected the interpretation given by Couchoud to the expression: «Jesus... suffered outside the gate.» Couchoud, relying on the last sentence: «We don't have here a lasting city» gave to: «outside the gate» the meaning of: «out of the world», in heaven. Loisy affirms that «this indication has to represent in a literal sense the place of the Passion, otherwise... the discourse no longer makes sense... Outside the gate means outside the city, and the author indicates, as a known place, the place of Calvary». [LOISY, Histoire et mythe, p. 103. - GOGUEL himself, Jésus, pg. 94, wrote: «It is because of its allegorical effect that this detail (outside the gate) is detected, but one cannot admit that it is an allegorical creation, since, then, it would not be isolated».]
Now Loisy, in 1935, had established in much more nuanced terms the distinction between the two passages in terms of their meaning to bear witness to a tradition. «This reference, which alludes to the place where Christ suffered death (13:12), appears to be a fulfillment of prophecy, and this other, where it was thought to recognize the prayer of Gethsemane (5:7-10), would seem to have no relation to it. But doesn't the very expression, «appears to be a fulfillment of prophecy», tend to suggest - whatever the intentions of the critics - that, like the prayer of Hebrews 5:7, in regard to Psalm 22, the passion of Jesus «outside the gate» was «presented» on the basis of the Scriptures? [LOISY has not indicated which prophecy it is: the Bibles with the parallels, before Hebrews 13:11-12, refers to the Book of Leviticus 4:12, 21, and 16:27, prescribing that the atoning bull, after his sacrifice, will be burned out of the field].

(Marc Stéphane, Le Passion de Jésus, p. 310-311)


For several centuries, in fact, there was no crucifix, but only a celestial cross, which came from Plato. Justin knew this when he wrote: «Plato says of the Son of God that he was extended on the universe in the form of an X... he had not seen that this sign was a cross». [56]
Plato had seen it perfectly, for it was he who created this symbol. A tiny correction to Justin's text to be faithful to Plato: it is necessary to replace the «Son of God» with the Logos.
Plato believed that the world was rational, and that God had conceived it according to a previous plan, called «logos». This plan, according to a simplified geometry, involved two axes, one north-south, the other east-west, and these two axes crossed at the zenith. At this culminating point, in this cornerstone of the world, these two axes formed a cross. It is this masterpiece of creation that represented itself with a cross, a glorious symbol.
Later, when the «Logos» was personified, the cross became the symbol of the Logos, of which the prologue to the Fourth Gospel could say: «Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made» [John 1:3].
Thus the cross became the symbol of the creator, of what would later be called the Great Architect of the universe.
In the form, this cross was not vertical, but represented by the Greek letter «X».
It is this cross that, for several centuries, Christians venerated, very proud to be able to pray to the great creator.

(Guy Fau, Le christianisme sans Jésus, p. 132)


In the original text of the Epistles of Paul, the name of Jesus appears secondary; it was added to Christ who, for the apostle, was a god of mystery, a redeemer, an enemy of the Jewish Law who was crucified in the cosmos by the prince of the world (Yahweh), and by the planetary demons who guard imprisoned souls.

(Georges Ory, Analysis of Christian Origins, p. 37)


The function of the Emmaus narrative, for example, will be to affirm that the heavenly crucifixion of the saviour by the Archons — terminating the reign of astral fatality and alluded to in 1 Co 2.8 —, transposed into a Roman-style crucifixion ‘by the archpriests and archons’, was predicted of the messiah.

(Jean Magne, From Christianity to Gnosis and from Gnosis to Christianity, p. 69)


The sacrifice is performed behind the azure veil separating heaven from earth: «For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again»; [Hebrews] 9:24-25a.
Since, then, Christ entered heaven «to offer himself», it is because He had not yet «offered» himself, that is to say, given himself as a sacrifice, before entering it. He climbs it alive; and his blood sprinkles the heavenly Altar without having to owe anything to the «spear» given to a corpse that could hardly bleed; Jn 19:34.
...
For the conservative exegesis, on the contrary, the Archons are temporal rulers; the Italian author Pesce goes so far as to give them the Jewish nationality. [48] This is a gratuitous affirmation, with an apologetic tendency, which seeks to harmonize the epistles with the Gospels.
In fact the Pauline text is purely Gnostic: not even the Archons of this world (Kosmou), but those of «this aïon» (tou aïônos toutou), that is to say, the planetary rulers who reign between two cosmic conflagrations, and who correspond to the Stoïcheïa or Elements of Gal 4:8-11, are designated.
Moreover, if the Archons were human agents, their «wisdom» would be confused with that of «this aïon». The apostle distinguishes their wisdom from that of «this anointed one» (1 Cor 2:6), so they form a separate group, the group of geniuses who crucified the Lord of glory.

(Jean-Kléber Watson, Le christianisme avant Jésus-Christ, p. 164, 181)


In 1 Corinthians 2:8 he tells us who crucified Jesus. Is it Pilate, the Romans, the Jews? No, it is "the rulers of this age (who) crucified the Lord of glory." Many scholars agree that he is referring not to temporal rulers but to the spirit and demonic forces—"powers and authorities" was the standard term— which inhabited the lower celestial spheres, part of the territory of "flesh." (See Paul Ellingworth, A Translator's Handbook for 1 Corinthians, p.46: "A majority of scholars think that supernatural powers are intended here." These include S. G. F. Brandon, C. K. Barrett, Jean Hering, Paula Fredriksen, S. D. F. Salmond, and it also included Ignatius and Marcion.) Colossians 2:15 can hardly refer to any historical event on Calvary.
It was in such spiritual, mythological dimensions that Paul's Christ Jesus had been 'taken on a body' (cf. Hebrews 10:5) and performed his act of redemption. Such was the timeless secret which God had hidden for long ages and only recently revealed to visionaries like Paul.

(Earl Doherty, The Jesus Puzzle)


Next comes Isaiah's meeting with Jesus, and the beginning of the descent with Jesus. It starts with instructions to Jesus from God:
Go forth and descend through all the heavens and thou wilt descend to the firmament and that world: to the angel in Sheol thou wilt descend, but to Haguel thou will not go.

So we can see here that, in this Christology, Jesus only descends as far as the world in the firmament, not to the Earth. We get further confirmation of this concept in the succeeding text:
And thou wilt be careful to become like the form of the angels of the firmament and the angels also who are in Sheol. And none of the angels of that world shall know that Thou art with Me of the seven heavens and of their angels.

Christ's final destination is to be among the angels of the world in the firmament. Remember, this is the world that is a copy of the world of the flesh, and it is hidden from the world of the flesh:
Chapter 6:15, And the vision which the holy Isaiah saw was not from this world but from the world which is hidden from the flesh».
Chapter 7:10, And as above so on the earth also; for the likeness of that which is in the firmament is here on the earth.


(Mike Lawrence, Seventy: The Seventy Year Reverse Construction Thesis And Christians Before Jesus)


The Ascension of Isaiah is another example of this: we can tell the original redaction had Jesus die in outer space (it therefore was composed by a Christian sect who clearly adopted what I am calling minimal mythicism), but later, some historicizing Christians inserted a section that had Jesus incongruously die on earth at the hands of Pilate in a summary of their own fabricated Gospel (see Chapter 3, § 1 ). This appears to be what typically happened to the evidence. It was erased, doctored or rewritten to support a historicist party line against a mythicist one (see, again, Element 44; as well as Chapter 7, §7).

(Richard Carrier, On the historicity of Jesus, p. 351-352)

(I am adding suggestions :cheers: on this thread which include other references to the list)
Last edited by Giuseppe on Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:32 am, edited 6 times in total.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: List of Mythicists who placed the crucifixion of Paul's Jesus in Outer Space

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:39 am

Here’s a suggestion. Get a job. Nobody here likes you.

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Giuseppe
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Re: List of Mythicists who placed the crucifixion of Paul's Jesus in Outer Space

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:46 am

Go distant, Tim O'Neill.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: List of Mythicists who placed the crucifixion of Paul's Jesus in Outer Space

Post by maryhelena » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:52 am

Just because Paul can be interpreted to be referencing a heavenly, an 'outer space' crucifixion story, does not in any shape or form cancel out the Terra Firma crucifixion of the gospel story. There are two crucifixion stories in the NT. A heavenly 'crucifixion' relates to what we do when we want to get rid of any old idea - we crucify it - we kill it off. That is how our intellect works. That is the power and the value of intellectual evolution: life, death and rebirth of our intellectual capacity.

The gospel crucifixion story on terra firma - a human crucified has no salvation potential. It's just a sad reflection on how inhumane our species can fall. History has it's dark side as well as it's contribution to our existence. But we need to know where we have come from. The woke cancel agenda of some mythicsts leaves much to be desired.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats

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Re: List of Mythicists who placed the crucifixion of Paul's Jesus in Outer Space

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:56 am

maryhelena wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:52 am
Just because Paul can be interpreted to be referencing a heavenly, an 'outer space' crucifixion story,
Stop here, please. The doubt has been raised, for the good or for the evil. Once the doubt has been raised, a doubt of this dimension (the place of crucificion!), then, for a thing called "intellectual honesty"*, I can't progress further unless someone exorcizes that particular doubt giving a good explicit evidence.

Until now, none has given that explicit evidence.

The doubt is not exorcized, in date 15 august 2020.

* of which Ben C. Smith is missing.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: List of Mythicists who placed the crucifixion of Paul's Jesus in Outer Space

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:55 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:46 am
Go distant, Tim O'Neill.
No.

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Re: List of Mythicists who placed the crucifixion of Paul's Jesus in Outer Space

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:04 pm

There is no such thing as a "heavenly crucifixion". That is pure invention. Indeed, there is only two possible references to a "heavenly crucifixion," but even those are vague. (I am of course referring to John 3:13-14, and Gal 2:20). No other Christian or extragnostic text speaks of such a thing. Not even Acts of John, where the earthly crucifixion is distinguished from a celestial cross of Light.

The celestial cross was the barrier between the heavenly realm and the material sphere. Jesus had to cross this barrier, yes, even had to die, but was not "crucified"/hung on it.

That's why Giuseppe, Carrier or Doherty cannot produce a single texts that says unambiguously that Jesus was crucified on this celestial cross. They can only achieve that through apologetics. And I'm not a fan of apologetics, so I dismiss them all.

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Re: List of Mythicists who placed the crucifixion of Paul's Jesus in Outer Space

Post by GakuseiDon » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:59 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:17 am
This is a list of Mythicists who:
  • (1) accept the authenticity of at least 4 pauline epistles
  • (2) place the death of Paul's Jesus in Outer Space
You mention Earl Doherty in your list of people who place Paul's Jesus's death in "Outer Space". Back in 2015, Doherty saw Dr James McGrath's review of Dr Carrier's book, and didn't realise that McGrath's use of "outer space" was coming from Carrier. Doherty said that the use of the term "implies a pejorative dismissal" of ancient thought:

https://vridar.org/2015/03/05/mcgrath-o ... -accuracy/

Also, for McGrath to use the phrase “die in outer space” mirrors the prejudice he feels toward the concept, and the lack of understanding he has for it in ancient thought. “Outer space” in such a context implies a pejorative dismissal, almost relegated to “beyond reality”. The layers of heaven in Platonic thought were anything but beyond reality, but an integral part of it.

When it was pointed out to him that the term originated with Carrier himself, Doherty writes:

Hmmm…perhaps Richard uses the term for the sake of those completely unfamiliar with the principle of a layered heavens. I’d have to see its context to judge how it comes across. I guess it just kind of has a problematic feel to me, a shorthand which has its drawbacks to someone in the know. I’d have much preferred something like “in a heavenly world” or “in a lower sphere of the heavens.” That would force the reader to realize that the heavens were viewed very differently than we view them today. “Outer space” to us implies no outer boundary, whereas for the ancients the heavens above the earth were very much delineated and enclosed by God’s realm.

And Doherty is right, of course. Using "outer space" loses the sense of the realm being part of heaven and bounded, with its idea of different spheres of heaven. Far better for Carrier to have explained at the start how they conceptualised the heavens at the time of Paul, so that they understood what ideas like "third heaven" meant. Otherwise he is stuck writing things like "in outer space in the third heaven", as per the examples I gave on the other thread.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse

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Re: List of Mythicists who placed the crucifixion of Paul's Jesus in Outer Space

Post by maryhelena » Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:48 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:04 pm
There is no such thing as a "heavenly crucifixion".
If the writings of Paul do not reference a 'heavenly crucifixion', i.e. a spiritual or intellectual crucifixion, then as Paul says, if Christ is not raised up your faith is in vain. No human physical resurrection is possible. The human dead stay dead. Therefore, there can be no value whatsoever in a human crucifixion. The only value that a crucifixion, an execution, a killing, can have is if that crucifixion takes place in our spiritual capacity - which is of course our intellectual capacity. Life, death and rebirth are not elements of our physical bodily nature. They are aspects of our evolutionary intellectual capacity.

George Wells:

Doherty likewise holds that Paul speaks of Jesus 'in exclusively mythological terms'. I have never -- in spite of what some of my critics have alleged -- subscribed to such a view: for Paul does, after all, call Jesus a descendant of David (Rom. 1:3), born of a woman under the (Jewish) law (Gal.4:4), who lived as a servant to the circumcision (Rom. 15:8) and was crucified on a tree (Gal.3:13) and buried (I Cor. 15:4). Doherty interprets these passages from the Platonic premiss that things on Earth have their 'counterparts' in the heavens. Thus 'within the spirit realm' Christ could be of David's stock, etc. But, if the 'spiritual' reality was believed to correspond in some way to a material equivalent on Earth, then the existence of the latter is conceded........

Perhaps Doherty's strongest point is Paul's assertion (1 Cor.2:8) that Jesus was crucified by supernatural forces (the archontes). I take this to mean that they prompted the action of human agents: but I must admit that the text ascribes the deed to the archontes themselves.

https://infidels.org/library/modern/g_a ... liest.html

''But, if the 'spiritual' reality was believed to correspond in some way to a material equivalent on Earth, then the existence of the latter is conceded.''

If you have an earthly crucifixion then you have a corresponding 'heavenly' crucifixion. If you have a 'heavenly' crucifixion then you have a corresponding earthly crucifixion. However, it is only one crucifixion that has 'salvation' potential, 'salvation' value. And that is the spiritual, the 'heavenly, the intellectual crucifixion. Resurrection, rebirth, is spiritual, it is intellectual. Not in some outer space but within the intellectual capacity that is part of our human nature.

The gospel Jesus is a literary figure. As such this figure can die, resurrect, and go to heaven any day of the week. Logic - and science - tells us that our physical bodies are just not made that way. Consequently, the gospel Jesus story is not preaching value in a human sacrifice. Our humanity fails us if we attempt to place value upon a human crucifixion. Logic fails us if we view the gospel story as historical. The value in the gospel story is not 'salvation' via a human sacrifice. The value of the gospel story is that it embeds, as it were, the spiritual story, the story of intellectual life, death and rebirth, to a specific time and place. Terra firma - where history has left it's trail of man's inhumanity to man - and crucifixions than shame us.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats

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Re: List of Mythicists who placed the crucifixion of Paul's Jesus in Outer Space

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:03 pm

Paul's teaching also indicates that those who undergo baptism also share in Christ's crucifixion, death and resurrection. So are these baptisms taking place in "outer space" with Xenu and Mr. Spock? Is Q God and Picard the Son? I guess that makes Sisko Paul, which means the Bajorans had it right all along!

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