Examples of the fathers mistaking secular history for sacred?

[MrMacSon]

Not quite misinterpreting but perhaps reinterpreting or, even more, co-opting ie. fathers mistaking secular history for sacred [use] -

A few years ago I discovered that the early popes list seems to match the list of Roman emperors because with a number of them some of the names are similar; the dates [are] roughly the same; and they match in sequential order ...

If valid, this notion would definitely count.

It would seem to be a new proposition, so would seem to need to be discussed and argued over.

The criterion it fails would be this one:

Also, the examples have to be relatively clear and noncontroversial among critical scholars.

Serious questions: which critical scholars? what are 'critical scholars'?

[Giuseppe]

I wonder if this Theudas:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theudas ... lentinius)

...was based on the Theudas killed by Fadus:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theudas

[Ben C. Smith]

Serious questions: which critical scholars?

Any specializing in the fields relevant to my inquiry.

what are 'critical scholars'?

This page is at least in the right neighborhood.

[DCHindley]

I don't think anyone has brought it up quite yet, but what about the belief of ecclesiastical authorities like Eusebius that Adamantius of Alexandria was the same as an Alexandrian middle Platonist of some repute by the name Origen?

Now I'm no philosopher, but I have read up on the matter (Dillon, etc), and from what I can gather, a real middle Platonist (or followers of Aristotle, or even Zeno the Stoic), would have ripped the Christian "Origen" to shreds and spit him out well masticated. Origen, who along with Clement of Alexandria, dabbled with middle Platonism as revised by Philo of Alexandria, but I do not see a lot of evidence that Origen was a really "deep" thinker of the caliber of "real" Platonists active in the city.

Origen took Philo's twist on middle Platonism and twisted some more to make a "Christian" understanding of Philo's principal(s). Otherwise, he seems more like a "sophist" in its original sense: A tutor in basic education for the better off Alexandrians.

But tha's jus' me.

[Ben C. Smith]

I don't think anyone has brought it up quite yet, but what about the belief of ecclesiastical authorities like Eusebius that Adamantius of Alexandria was the same as an Alexandrian middle Platonist of some repute by the name Origen?

Do you mean the controversy surrounding Ammonius Saccas and Origen the Pagan (so called)? If so, and if I understand the matter correctly, yes, it would count, except that it seems like something of a mess to sort out!

[andrewcriddle]

I don't think anyone has brought it up quite yet, but what about the belief of ecclesiastical authorities like Eusebius that Adamantius of Alexandria was the same as an Alexandrian middle Platonist of some repute by the name Origen?

Do you mean the controversy surrounding Ammonius Saccas and Origen the Pagan (so called)? If so, and if I understand the matter correctly, yes, it would count, except that it seems like something of a mess to sort out!

Beatrice argues controversially that there was only one Origen
https://www.academia.edu/37696061/Porph ... Origen_pdf

Andrew Criddle

[Ben C. Smith]

I don't think anyone has brought it up quite yet, but what about the belief of ecclesiastical authorities like Eusebius that Adamantius of Alexandria was the same as an Alexandrian middle Platonist of some repute by the name Origen?

Do you mean the controversy surrounding Ammonius Saccas and Origen the Pagan (so called)? If so, and if I understand the matter correctly, yes, it would count, except that it seems like something of a mess to sort out!

Beatrice argues controversially that there was only one Origen
https://www.academia.edu/37696061/Porph ... Origen_pdf

Thanks. I have heard of that position, but never really looked into it.

[Secret Alias]

Veronica and Berenice. Various Christian authors suppose some sort of relationship exists between the Herodian princess and the Christian lady with the handkerchief.

[Secret Alias]

FWIW worth with respect to Origen, I bet a lot of us have acquaintances who would be surprised to find we spend time at this forum engaged in Biblical exegesis. To that end, it is conceivable that Origen and Ammonius would be mistaken or have people unaware of their Christian interests. Wasn't Demetrius a gardener? There must have been stories where Spinoza was just known as 'that Jew who ripped me off for that new glassware set that isn't worth half of what he charged me.'

[DCHindley]

I don't think anyone has brought it up quite yet, but what about the belief of ecclesiastical authorities like Eusebius that Adamantius of Alexandria was the same as an Alexandrian middle Platonist of some repute by the name Origen?

Do you mean the controversy surrounding Ammonius Saccas and Origen the Pagan (so called)? If so, and if I understand the matter correctly, yes, it would count, except that it seems like something of a mess to sort out!

Yes, that's the one.

John Dillon, no mere slouch of a scholar, is of the opinion that Origen the pagan philosopher was separate from Origen the Christian in The Middle Platonists (1996 revision) pages 380-383.

He also points to a likely timing mismatch, as Origen the Christian would have had to have been a pupil of Ammonius S. 20 years before Plotinus was.

Ammonius was not really a platonic philosopher so much as a Neo-Pythagorean mystic. He employed a technique (the Nous technique) to interpreting his sources, which Plotinus found helpful in developing Neo-Platonism from Middle Platonism. I think Eusebius misinterpreted Porphyry's statements about Ammonius S. and his pupils, which did include Middle Platonists.